2011-06-22 08:44:57Monkton
Riccardo

riccardoreitano@tiscali...
93.147.82.129

All comment is superfluous

2011-06-22 08:51:19Apparently the audience responded very positively to this part of the presentation
John Cook

john@skepticalscience...
121.222.9.229

According to James who to his eternal credit sat through Monckton's entire talk

2011-06-22 08:54:03
dana1981
Dana Nuccitelli
dana1981@yahoo...
64.129.227.4

Yes, see here for further details.

2011-06-22 09:07:36Did James...
John Hartz
John Hartz
john.hartz@hotmail...
98.122.98.161

tape the presentation?

PS -- James who?

-------------------------------------

Forget the above -- just saw James Wright post on this presentation.

 

2011-06-22 09:08:56
Rob Honeycutt

robhon@mac...
98.207.62.223

Someone MUST get a photo of Monckton directly in front of this slide, hopefully gesturing with one hand.

2011-06-22 14:55:10
James Wight

jameswight@southernphone.com...
112.213.150.176

I didn't attend the lecture, I just watched the video. I'm in Australia, and I wouldn't go across the street to see Monckton.

2011-06-22 14:57:19Here's Monckton's narration for that Garnaut quote
James Wight

jameswight@southernphone.com...
112.213.150.176

"Professor Ross Garnaut: All we should do is believe when they tell us it’s all going to be terrible, if we’re not climate scientists. That again is a fascist point of view, that you merely accept authority without question. Heil Hitler!"

2011-06-22 15:13:44
Paul D

chillcast@googlemail...
82.18.130.183

Godwins law again.

2011-06-22 17:58:00
Dikran Marsupial
Gavin Cawley
gcc@cmp.uea.ac...
139.222.14.107

Absolutely disgusting. 

2011-06-22 23:01:12Top story on ABC News Online
James Wight

jameswight@southernphone.com...
112.213.150.176

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/06/22/3250911.htm

2011-06-22 23:13:15
nealjking

nealjking@gmail...
84.151.53.9

I guess ABC is mainstream media: I wonder if Monckton has gone a bridge too far.

2011-06-23 00:05:12
Dikran Marsupial
Gavin Cawley
gcc@cmp.uea.ac...
139.222.14.107

sadly not the first time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sINbLjWDO9w&feature=related

but this time is worse for being considered and planned. 

2011-06-23 02:18:32
Rob Honeycutt

robhon@mac...
98.207.62.223

Folks, I think this whole swastika thing is great news.  This is Monckton further marginalizing himself.  It plays well with his core audience but that's about it.  Anyone, most people of rational mind (even if they don't believe CC is real), will see rhetoric like this as going too far.

Take Glenn Beck as an example.  Over the course of a couple of years, in order to maintain the attention of his core audience, had to become more and more extreme.  While that played well with the faithful it lost him the broader audience.  People tire of this kind of crap and it eventually lead to Fox canceling what had very recently been a wildly popular show.  

This is also why I think someone needs to get a clear photo of Monckton standing directly in front of this slide of his.  If such an un-doctored photo starts circulating around the internet people are not going to associate it with the message that Monckton is trying to deliver, they will associate it with Monckton, and hopefully by way of that, the entire climate denial crowd.

This has the potential to be a HUGE own goal for the denier crowd.

Maybe I'm overly optimistic but I think this is a strong sign of the climate denier movement getting ready to flame out.

2011-06-23 02:26:39
Dikran Marsupial
Gavin Cawley
gcc@cmp.uea.ac...
139.222.14.107

I doubt he will be making a speaking tour of Austria or Germany any time soon.

2011-06-23 06:25:32
Paul D

chillcast@googlemail...
82.18.130.183

From the ABC article that James linked to:

He alluded to nations like Britain and New Zealand that have conservative governments and emissions trading schemes, saying action on climate change should transcend political boundaries.

"In much of the world, perhaps everywhere except in contemporary Australia and the United States, concern for global warming is a conservative as much as a social democratic issue," he said.

 

This is so true.

2011-06-23 06:49:54
Albatross
Julian Brimelow
stomatalaperture@gmail...
199.126.232.206

Rob,

I share your optimism.  We cannot miss out on this opportunity to expose the denial movement for what it really is.  It would also be a good tool to divide and conquer.  I hate the politics of this, but we have to start getting more streetwise and aggressive.  

2011-06-23 07:03:39just broke in The Australian
John Cook

john@skepticalscience...
121.222.9.229

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/labor-talking-to-generators-in-bid-to-clinch-carbon-deal/story-fn59niix-1226080248944

Mr Abbott was caught in a new controversy when climate change sceptic Christopher Monckton, who will address a mining conference to be opened by the Opposition Leader next week, was revealed to have likened the Gillard government's key climate change adviser to a Nazi.

Lord Monckton told an American Freedom Alliance conference at the weekend that Ross Garnaut was a fascist. He also described all climate change scientists as communists. "They call themselves Green because they are too yellow to admit they are red," he said. "Professor Ross Garnaut, that again is a fascist point of view . . . that you merely accept authority without question heil Hitler, on we go."

Lord Monckton will address an Association of Mining and Exploration Companies conference next week in Perth.

Mr Abbott will open the conference and independent MP Rob Oakeshott is listed among the many speakers.

A spokesman for the Opposition Leader said last night Mr Abbott did not share Lord Monckton's views.

2011-06-23 08:28:42
dana1981
Dana Nuccitelli
dana1981@yahoo...
64.129.227.4

Apparently Andrew Bolt of all people said Monckton went too far with the Nazi crap.

2011-06-23 08:35:06Can we blow this up?!
nealjking

nealjking@gmail...
84.151.53.9

How much can we lift this balloon?

2011-06-23 09:14:18
dana1981
Dana Nuccitelli
dana1981@yahoo...
64.129.227.4

nazi monckton

2011-06-23 09:27:52The Monckton balloon
John Cook

john@skepticalscience...
121.222.9.229

It's blown up as big as it probably can - all through mainstream media, the denialosphere turning on Monckton and The Australian connecting Monckton to Tony Abbott. It's like a beautiful, beautiful gift Monckton has given us just before touring Australia.

Perhaps the next step is to increase scrutiny on the many other nutty things Monckton has done and said. However, that's not the job of SkS - our job is the science and I'm working on a document that will encapsulate Monckton Myths into a concise, readable PDF to distribute to Australian NGOs and journalists. Will be working on that today and tomorrow, will post an early draft here before the weekend for feedback (and probably requesting assistance with putting the content together). Stay tuned.

2011-06-24 03:12:34
Rob Honeycutt

robhon@mac...
98.207.62.223

It's worth reading Lubos Motl's response to Anthony Watts' response to Monckton to show how thin their distain actually is...

Dear Anthony,

I appreciate your self-evident effort to be the holiest man among the saints. ;-) It’s not the first time I see it. You always want the skeptics to be the most likable guys, and so on. On the other hand, I think it’s more important to look at the content. And sorry to say – I think that Lord Monckton’s description is pretty much valid. The discussion about Mr Garnaut’s personal plans is legitimate because he is just way too important in Australia and I think that your article has actually discussed these factual matters less deeply and more superficially than Lord Monckton’s speech.

Garnaut’s report wasn’t considered an assault on democracy just by Lord Monckton but even by completely mainstream political leader of Australia, Tony Abbott, see:

http://www.australianclimatemadness.com/2011/06/garnaut-report-an-assault-on-democracy/

Garnaut really wants the tax rates etc. to be decided by an unelected junta. It is OK for you to avoid the word “fascism” as a matter of principle and recommend it to WUWT readers but I don’t think you really have the credentials to prevent others – everyone else – from asking and answering the question. Lord Monckton asked the question whether Garnaut’s words and actions may be understood as fascism and he has decided that the answer is Yes. And I understand where Lord Monckton is coming from. Now, I also know that the alarmists would love to link the skeptics to many bad things, including the Nazis, but there’s still a difference. What Lord Monckton says is supported by some facts and tight analogies – actual plans how to reorganize the (Australian) society; what the alarmists are saying is not supported by anything.

More generally, I have found climate skeptics to be frustratingly toothless in many contexts – the “lukewarm” people just got used to the fact that the climate skeptics should normally be kicked into just like the Jews in the Germany of the 1930s because this is the approach that’s prevailing and sold as “normal” – and I consider Lord Monckton to be a refreshing counterexample of a person who shows that the skeptics don’t just offer their other face whenever they’re slapped on the first one – because this is not a path to the victory (and not even dignity) in the real world.

By the way, I forgot to add an appropriate picture of Ross Garnaut:

http://www.australianclimatemadness.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/ross_garnaut.jpg

All the best
Lubos

REPLY: It is certainly valid to compare policies and performance in a historical context where it is merited, Godwin’s law provides for such things:

Godwin’s law applies especially to inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic comparisons of other situations (or one’s opponent) with Hitler or Nazis or their actions. The law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions covering genocide, eugenics (racial superiority) or other mainstays of Nazi Germany, nor, more debatably, to discussion of other totalitarian regimes,or ideology, since a Nazi comparison in those circumstances may be appropriate. Whether it applies to humorous use or references to oneself is open to interpretation, since this would not be a fallacious attack against a debate opponent.

However, use of the swastika, saying “Heil Hitler”, while at the same time invoking the name of the person does nothing except allow the message to be hijacked. Monckton’s presentation would have the same hijacking problem if he’d put up an image from the horrid goatse.cx.

In my opinion, this is an unnecessary over the top blunder that only gets media shock value traction while pushing the important message into a dark hole. – Anthony

2011-06-24 03:18:40
Rob Honeycutt

robhon@mac...
98.207.62.223

Motl's punctuation of the point by linking a photo of Garnaut in what looks like a sieg heil is a particularly egregious symbolic support of Monckton's statements.

2011-06-24 03:23:46
nealjking

nealjking@gmail...
84.151.62.211

Good, maybe Watts will throw Motl under the bus as well.

2011-06-24 03:35:22
Rob Honeycutt

robhon@mac...
98.207.62.223

Neal...  I think they're all just passively nudging each other in the general vicinity of the bus.

2011-06-24 07:46:34@John cook
John Hartz
John Hartz
john.hartz@hotmail...
98.122.98.161

Re your new Monkton project, you may want to reference the article about him in “The Dirty Dozen of Climate Change Denial,” Mother Jones magazine. Monkton ranked second after ExxonMobile.

No. 2: Lord Christopher Monckton

 

 

2011-06-24 15:09:42Monckton apologises (sort of)
James Wight

jameswight@southernphone.com...
121.79.16.40

Sceptic Lord under fire, but speech to go ahead

CONTROVERSIAL UK climate sceptic Lord Christopher Monckton has apologised for his comments likening the Labor's climate change adviser Professor Ross Garnaut to a Nazi.

In a yet-to-be-published article, Lord Monckton says ''let me begin with an unreserved apology''.

''In a recent lecture, I should not have described the opinions of Professor Ross Garnaut, the Australian Government's climate economist, as fascist. I apologise humbly.''

But he goes on to say: ''Will there be similar apologies from those who have called us 'climate deniers' or 'denialists', or who say we should be tattooed with our opinions, or imprisoned, or barred from Australia, or tried for 'high crimes against humanity'?"

Lord Monckton - who is in Australia for a speaking tour - was derided by politicians on both sides yesterday for a speech he made last month at which he displayed a swastika next to a quote from Professor Garnaut and said ''Heil Hitler, on we go'' in a fake German accent.

The Age understands Lord Monckton also sent an apology to Professor Garnaut. Professor Garnaut said most Australians would judge his use of Nazi symbols as ''outside the boundaries of civilised discourse''.

Opposition Leader Tony Abbott, who will speak two days before Lord Monckton at a conference held by the Association of Mining and Exploration Companies next week, described the comments as ''offensive and over the top and I repudiate them''. He said he still intended to speak at the conference despite Lord Monckton's presence.

Mr Abbott met Lord Monckton on his last Australian tour early last year, but said he had no plans to meet him this time.

Victorian Liberal MP Josh Frydenberg told The Age he found Lord Monckton's comments deeply offensive. Liberal frontbencher Malcolm Turnbull described him as ''increasingly a rather sick, vaudeville character who makes more and more outlandish charges in order to get attention''.

In question time, the government attacked Mr Abbott for his association with Lord Monckton. Climate Change Minister Greg Combet said he had ''previously stated that climate change is a global communist conspiracy, hatched in the UN, for the purposes of establishing world government''. ''It is unbefitting of a political leader in this country to hold these views and these associations,'' he said.

The mining association chief executive, Simon Bennison, said Lord Monckton had been booked to speak because a number of his members wanted to hear what he had to say. AMEC did not condone his comments, but would not censor anyone.

In his article, Lord Monckton said the cost of carbon reduction schemes ''exceeds that of the imagined [and largely imaginary] damage from unmitigated warming''. ''The Planet was triumphantly Saved 2000 years ago by a carpenter's son from Galilee. It does not need Saving again,'' he writes.

2011-06-24 15:38:08
Daniel Bailey
Daniel Bailey
yooper49855@hotmail...
97.83.150.37

''The Planet was triumphantly Saved 2000 years ago by a carpenter's son from Galilee. It does not need Saving again,''

The would-be Lord needs to revisit his theology.  The real Lord - the carpenter's Son - saved the Church, not the planet.

The planet gets remade, anyway.

2011-06-24 17:39:39
Rob Painting
Rob
paintingskeri@vodafone.co...
118.92.97.75

"The planet gets remade, anyway"

Reminds me of the ending of that documentary the 11th Hour, with the Native American chief saying more or less the same thing (1hr 19mins). Pretty damn profound!

2011-06-25 05:35:07
oslo

borchinfolab@gmail...
90.149.33.182

The best way to deal with Monckton is given at about 1:15:00 in this congressional hearing from last year.

2011-06-25 06:43:39
Rob Honeycutt

robhon@mac...
98.207.62.223

I think dear Christopher is learning today that you can't so easily un-ring the bell.

2011-06-26 13:44:43WBGU
James Wight

jameswight@southernphone.com...
112.213.151.234

I can understand why the Australian media have focused on Monckton's attack on Garnaut, but there's actually an even more aggregious misquote in the same presentation. Monckton claims:

Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf says: “There will be no body of representatives which makes its decisions through the majority vote.” His future for Europe was no democracy. And he had a body called the Scientific Advisory Council on Global Environmental Change, which said: “The people must accept the absolute pre-eminence of sustainability and must thus surrender their own wishes. The guarantor of this virtual contract is the directing State.” But watch the slide: Germany, 2011. They’re at it again!

This was received with sycophantic yeses from the audience of “skeptics”.

Firstly, the actual name of the body in question is the German Advisory Council on Global Change (WBGU). The words “scientific” and “environmental” seem to be completely fabricated.

Secondly, the WBGU website says: “The German federal government set up WBGU as an independent, scientific advisory body in 1992 in the run-up to the Rio Earth Summit.” It wasn’t founded by Hitler as Monckton claims.

Thirdly, this is what the report in question actually says:

The new social contract is an agreement to change: the global citizenship consents to expecting innovations that have a normative link to the sustainability postu­late, and, in exchange, agrees to surrender the instinct to hang on to the established. The guarantor in this vir­tual contract is a proactive state that involves its citi­zens in future decisions requisite to the agreement of sustainability targets.

Monckton continues:

“The decarbonisation of society,” says our friends the Scientific Advisory Council, “can only be achieved by limitations on democracy.”

I was unable to find this sentence anywhere in the report (though the search tool seems to be playing up so it may be in there somewhere). In fact, it says the opposite:

The proactive state is firmly anchored in the tradi­tion of a liberal and constitutional democracy, but it develops this democracy further with a view towards the future sustainability of democratic communities and liberal civil societies, and takes into account the boundaries imposed on economic and social develop­ment by a finite planet. Whereas climate protection is often regarded as a restriction and unreasonable depri­vation, a proactive and enabling form of government has the explicit task of preserving available choices and the current room to manoeuvre for future generations and even, if possible, to extend these.

2011-06-26 15:31:46
John Mason

johntherock@btopenworld...
86.146.82.206

James, I searched the report for "democracy" and "decarbonisation". Both appear in several places but in no combination that is remotely close to that Monckton quote.

If he is referring to the report, Monckton has made this up.

Cheers - John

2011-06-26 15:59:35MediaWatch
James Wight

jameswight@southernphone.com...
112.213.151.234

I recommend we send John’s new Monckton Myths document to ABC TV’s MediaWatch. I think they would be interested as they criticised Monckton on his first Australian tour.

2011-06-26 19:04:24@ James Wight - German press
BaerbelW

baerbel-for-350@email...
93.231.176.71

James, the short answer to your question posted in the translators' forum is "No". I just did a Google-search and didn't find any recent mention of the name "Monckton" on a German media website. In fact, I didn't find any recent references to him on German speaking websites (apart from some known denier-websites called science-skeptical.de and the one from EIKE - which has strong ties to CFACT).

As far as I can tell, he is a "non-entity" in Germany and his name isn't really known. Searching the archives of the regional newspaper I read for "Monckton" scores 0 hits, whereas "Rahmstorf" comes back with 11 hits since 2010. Reputable German newspapers like the one I read, usually don't succumb to a "he-said-she-said" style of reporting when it comes to climate change. People like Monckton therefore don't seem to have much of a platform.

2011-06-26 19:25:55What about making some links and letting the 'investigative media' do the work.
Glenn Tamblyn

glenn@thefoodgallery.com...
58.170.204.135

Monckton is coming out for a visit. Jo Nova et al are promoting it. What about letting the media see things like David Evans' views about 'discrediting the scientists http://hot-topic.co.nz/how-to-be-a-denier-lesson-1-shrivel-and-die/'. Evans is a minnow. But he might be a minnow in the right place at the right time.

Is this fair? Is this nice?

No, its just taking the gloves off. Spreading the Guilt By Association as far and wide as possible.

Anyone know someone in the tabloid press?

2011-06-26 19:42:39German press
John Cook

john@skepticalscience...
121.222.9.229

"Reputable German newspapers like the one I read, usually don't succumb to a "he-said-she-said" style of reporting when it comes to climate change"

Sounds like the kind of parallel universe the rest of us wish we lived in, Baerbel! :-)

2011-06-26 19:48:38Germany
BaerbelW

baerbel-for-350@email...
93.231.176.71

The reporting in Germany is one thing, getting people to actually act is quite another. Even though people are aware of climate change it still isn't an overarching issue where people feel that immediate action is needed. But, taking this thought further should perhaps happen in another forum-thread....

2011-06-26 20:18:30
Riccardo

riccardoreitano@tiscali...
93.147.82.107

Monkton is almost unknown in italian newspapers as well. It is, instead, much quoted by die-hard skeptic blogs; the overall impact is minimal.
Like Baerbel says for germans, italians are mostly aware of the problem and support renewables and energy savings. What is still missing is that they do not really feel the urgency of strong actions, expecially when it comes to more costly measures and more profound lifestyle changes. Not a parallel world, then, but definitely better that the Tea Party world.

2011-06-26 20:47:39
Rob Painting
Rob
paintingskeri@vodafone.co...
118.93.12.223

Sounds like Germans and Italians are better poised to act when the shit starts hitting the fan. A lot of other developed countries are just going to retreat further into their fantasy world.

2011-06-26 21:20:46BaerbelW
John Hartz
John Hartz
john.hartz@hotmail...
98.122.98.161

How much attention does Der Spiegel pay to climate change these days?

2011-06-26 22:18:50Der Spiegel
BaerbelW

baerbel-for-350@email...
109.46.69.108
I'm not reading this magazine on a regular basis but the articles I become aware off are mostly okay. It's a different story for its competing magazine "Focus" whose editor is a "skeptic" from what I hear.
2011-06-28 06:22:02Not in the habit of this but....
John Mason

johntherock@btopenworld...
86.133.62.169

.... gave it a go in response to a civilised poster at the end of the WUWT Monckton thread:

  1. Andy Jacksonsays:

    Interestingly the swastika has been widely used as a sacred symbol in Hinduim, Buddhism, and other religions for 2 or 3 thousand years. It is a shame it has become stigmatized in the western world due to its adoption by the nazis. The Big Buddha statue in Lantau, Hong Kong has a huge swastika in front of it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

  2. John Masonsays:
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    Indeed, Andy – it is not dissimilar to the triskele (spelling?) – think of the Manx flag and other examples. This is old symbolism, resurrected for various purposes at various points along the line. But regarding the swastika in its current format, the memory of its application is still too young. That’s why the hardcore punks used to wear swastika armbands – to shock and/or offend.

    I disagree with the very unpleasant tattooing comment alluded to, but an examination of the “why don’t you try breathing it?” (now that ain’t compulsory gassing, c’mon folks) comment just says to me exasparation – we all go OTT at times but deep down we all know it doesn’t help. I try not to use the D-word too often (preferring Opposition – as in political, because that better describes it). But it is also important to remember that the concept of Denialism was first advocated by Freud, who was dead before 1939 was out. It wasn’t based on anything more than one perfectly human response to a difficult situation.

    Back on-topic: Monckton, I suspect, knew exactly what he was doing. Unless people have failed to notice, he is a master of theatre – his apology above is wonderfully theatrical even by the standards of us British. And on the show goes! Because I ask you all this: how much more attention has he drawn to himself with this performance?

    Answers on a beermat to the House of Lords ;)

    Cheers – John

Doubt the mods will let it through but hey-ho!

There are some frighteningly bonkers posts above though - take a head-vice, make sure your keyboard is in the upright position and coffee/beer/wine is somewhere off to one side!

Cheers - John