2011-06-03 10:42:39John Cook and Skeptical Science receive media praise...
John Hartz
John Hartz
john.hartz@hotmail...
99.95.221.238

"I got that chart from John Cook's indispensable Skeptical Science site, which is a great depot for scientific arguments about climate change (if you think you’ve come up with a novel reason why global warming is all hokum, search Cook's site first). He's lined up the observed growth in CO2 emissions against the various scenarios laid out by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. From 2003 to 2008, we were exceeding even the IPCC's worst-case scenarios. Then we dropped down to safer territory. Now we're going back up. The takeaway message is that we're on pace for about 4°C of warming by 2100."

Source: "Yep, it’s safe to start fretting about carbon again" by Brad Plumer, Washington Post, June 2, 2011

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/yep-its-safe-to-start-fretting-about-carbon-again/2011/06/02/AGw96VHH_blog.html

 

2011-06-03 14:32:24
Albatross
Julian Brimelow
stomatalaperture@gmail...
199.126.232.206

Nicely done!  Thanks Badger. Although they did not mention that Dana penned it.  they did not hyperlink to SkS though...at any rate great exposure.  Expect more trolls.

2011-06-03 14:54:25
dana1981
Dana Nuccitelli
dana1981@yahoo...
69.230.97.203

Heh geez, everyone is getting credit for my work but me these days!  It's all good, that's freaking awesome to get linked in the Washington Post, and in Ezra Klein's blog (he rocks), even though Klein didn't write the post.

2011-06-03 18:49:24
nealjking

nealjking@gmail...
91.33.115.51

Right now SkS is just beginning to show up as a source, it's a bit hard for people to associate too many (> 1) names with it. At some point, it would make sense to be clearer that SkS is a collective effort; and each article has a leader.

But right now any press is good press.

2011-06-03 21:01:29Collective effort
John Cook

john@skepticalscience...
121.222.9.229
Neal, good idea to communicate that SkS is a collective effort. As SkS gets bigger and deniers perceive our growing impact, the attacks will intensify. In that event, would be good to spread the blame over you lot as well :-)

Any thoughts on how to do this? One idea - do photos and bios a la shapingtomorrowsworld.org. Plus we could also do a "The SkS Community" webpage that has all the photos on one page. In fact, I like this idea. Any other thoughts?

2011-06-03 21:05:25
nealjking

nealjking@gmail...
91.33.115.51

the SkS Hockey Borg ...

2011-06-03 21:06:57"About us"
BaerbelW

baerbel-for-350@email...
109.84.241.45

How about updating the "About us" page and giving it a more prominent link than at the bottom of each page?

2011-06-03 23:26:38
Riccardo

riccardoreitano@tiscali...
93.147.82.122

I agree with Neal. People already know that comments are moderated by several people and that there's some sort of a group behind SkS. Good enough for now, but SkS reputation is growing fast and I forecast (project? :)) that it will be worth "exposing" the group work explicitly some time not far away. I think that making John's ability to build a high level group explicit will increase the confidence on SkS and John himself.

I think that it should be communicated with a post written by John launching a new "about us" page, as BaerbelW says. No fanfares though, something like that you just want to share the blame at the cost of giving up part of the merits.

One final thought. Even though the responsibility of a post is upon who sign it, the nasty world of the deniers will probably target each of us, as we have already seen with John and Dana. I don't care, but it's a strictly personal choice. Each of us will have to decide what personal informations make public, if any.

2011-06-04 01:50:02
dana1981
Dana Nuccitelli
dana1981@yahoo...
64.129.227.4

Updating the About Us page is a good idea.  Like Riccardo says, maybe make it an option for authors to add bios and photos like on Shaping Tomorrow.  I'm fine with it, but I can understand others being wary.

2011-06-04 02:32:58
Rob Honeycutt

robhon@mac...
98.207.62.223

Don't worry Dana.  At least over at No Tricks Zone they still refer to it as "Dana's Skeptical Science blog."  ;-)

2011-06-04 02:46:09
Rob Honeycutt

robhon@mac...
98.207.62.223

The About Us thing can be a real double edged sword.  A number of the authors seem to prefer aliases rather than their full names.  Using a full profile with real names certainly put each author listed on the denier hit list.  Addresses, email, and other personal information would easily be exposed and posted on the websites that attract loopy sorts.

This would require careful consideration on the part of each author.

That said, I think there is also considerable value to standing up publicly to the denier crowd.  We're in a real war here to save this planet as we know it.  Putting real faces and names to authorship adds a lot of validity to the opinions expressed.  As new readers come along it could add a lot to the site for those readers to know the faces and names of the authors. 

2011-06-04 02:48:19
nealjking

nealjking@gmail...
91.33.115.51

Maybe we could target the unveiling for a significant event - like the "SkS/WUWT cross-over + 10%" ?

2011-06-04 04:03:34
BaerbelW

baerbel-for-350@email...
93.231.153.73

Perhaps an updated "About us" page could be unveiled in a housekeeping post which John does every once in a while. It "just" depends on how high or low profile you'd like to make it.

Something else which might be nice to show is where the authors are coming from - if only to highlight the fact that this is a world-wide effort. For this, not even real names would be needed (pictures would be neat, though - or just a pin on the map). SkS is now a global virtual endeavour and it's a very good example for what is possible to achieve with the internet.

Cheers
Baerbel

2011-06-04 05:03:54
dana1981
Dana Nuccitelli
dana1981@yahoo...
64.129.227.4

I like that idea of showing a map with pins in SkS contributor locations.  That would be pretty cool.

2011-06-04 06:09:23
Rob Honeycutt

robhon@mac...
98.207.62.223

I don't know, Dana.  A map might reinforce Pierre's (NTZ) notion that you're my boyfriend.  

2011-06-04 06:14:59
dana1981
Dana Nuccitelli
dana1981@yahoo...
64.129.227.4

Oh lordy.  Pierre thinks I'm the devil incarnate.  That dude is already whacked out of his mind.

2011-06-04 06:15:47
Daniel Bailey
Daniel Bailey
yooper49855@hotmail...
97.83.150.37

You can't be the D.I.; that's my role...

2011-06-05 07:59:46
Rob Painting
Rob
paintingskeri@vodafone.co...
118.92.123.2

I don't mind letting it be known that I was one of the good guys. So no problems with a photo etc. 

2011-06-05 08:44:11Some caution
Glenn Tamblyn

glenn@thefoodgallery.com...
124.176.234.22

Just a small note of caution about identifying peoples locations. There are a few real wingnuts out there. Perhaps very generally by country.

But otherwise identifying the 'Collective' is a good idea. And a great name. shows all our communist roots and plans for world domination.

 

2011-06-05 09:15:54
Daniel Bailey
Daniel Bailey
yooper49855@hotmail...
97.83.150.37

@ Glenn:  So you're saying that I shouldn't mention I used to draw a paycheck from the CIA...?

2011-06-05 09:57:09One small step...
John Hartz
John Hartz
john.hartz@hotmail...
99.95.221.238

I've noticed that the email alert about a new SkS post does not show who the author is. This could easily be added. Doing so would reinforces the fact that there are multiple authors in the SkS stable.

2011-06-05 20:29:23LOL re NTZ
John Cook

john@skepticalscience...
121.222.9.229
Love that they call it "Dana's SkS blog". At least someone is giving Dana proper credit! :-)

I'm going to program up a feature that let's authors upload their photo and bio. So each author can choose whether to include themselves in our team page or not.

2011-06-05 20:39:17What about translators?
BaerbelW

baerbel-for-350@email...
93.231.156.187

If one of the purposes of the team page is to show how globally inclusive SkS has become, than I think that the translators should be included in this as well - if they like, that is. It will for sure add a couple of pins/flags should a map be included....

2011-06-05 21:10:34
Rob Painting
Rob
paintingskeri@vodafone.co...
118.92.119.86

Too right Baerbel!

2011-06-05 22:06:19Map idea
John Cook

john@skepticalscience...
121.222.9.229
Any tips on how to do that? Involving google maps and an API in some way?
2011-06-05 22:10:03
nealjking

nealjking@gmail...
91.33.118.33

I suggest that locations, by default, be to the COUNTRY, not to the city. I do not see any reason to advertise the specific location of anyone.

2011-06-06 01:53:25
BaerbelW

baerbel-for-350@email...
93.231.156.187

Could we perhaps use one of the GISSTemp maps and just - manually - add pins with names to approximate locations? Or, we find a map of the world under a suitable creative commons license and use that. I'd be willing to help with doing any manual work if necessary.

2011-06-06 03:29:20
dana1981
Dana Nuccitelli
dana1981@yahoo...
69.230.102.37

I'd suggest we do the pins by city, but don't associate specific names.  i.e. put a pin in West Sacramento, but don't identify it as me.  A lot of our authors are from USA, Australia, Canada, etc., so just doing it by country won't show the geographic distribution very accurately.

Google maps would probably do the job.  We could use the author introduction page, but I guess somebody would have to manually enter the locations.  And certainly we should include translators, and other jobs like moderators, if there are any who aren't also authors.

2011-06-06 03:45:02
Andy S

skucea@telus...
66.183.188.172

Maybe a compromise would be to do the pins by state or province, particularly for those of us who live in big countries. Robert Way and I live in the same country (Canada) but 5000km apart. By contrast, Dana is a mere 1000km away.

2011-06-06 04:39:45
nealjking

nealjking@gmail...
91.33.118.33

Andy S,

What does geographical separation matter?

There is some interest in country location, as it gives an idea of political exposure.

2011-06-06 04:49:37Comment
Robert Way

robert_way19@hotmail...
142.162.12.211

I can do a GIS (geographic information system) map that shows where everyone is located. Just give me a list of lat-longs for everyones position and it can easily be done.

It would actually be quite easy to be honest. Could have it done within an hour or so of having all the coordinates.

I don't have to put on City Names. I can just put pins for each part of the country and I don't have to put on person names. Just a pin or a dot or something showing what part of the world an author lives in.

2011-06-06 05:19:37
Andy S

skucea@telus...
66.183.188.172

Neal:

True, the precise geographic location doesn't matter really, but country location shouldn't be taken as a proxy for politics either. For example, I live in a constituency that just elected a Green MP, in a province that has a carbon tax, in a country that has one of the very worst records on carbon emissions.

Showing Dana and other Ameicans located in Kansas, John & co at Alice Springs and Robert Way and me at Chuchill "the polar bear capital of the world" would be a bit misleading, but a simple country marker might work for Europeans.

I think the general idea is to show that SKS contributors are widely scattered over the globe, albeit unfortunately concentrated in only three out of the seven continents.

2011-06-06 05:21:16Robert Way
John Hartz
John Hartz
john.hartz@hotmail...
99.95.221.238

Do you have access to a look-up table that provides Lat-Longs for cities? 

2011-06-06 05:45:04
Andy S

skucea@telus...
66.183.188.172

Badgersouth

If you do a Wikidepia search on the nearest significant town to you, you'll usually see the lat/long in the panel on the right-hand side, under the index map.

For example

2011-06-06 06:34:14
Paul D

chillcast@googlemail...
82.18.130.183

What if someone doesn't want to be on the map?

You should request permission before putting someone on the map.
I mean, I didn't even request to be a part of this!

John just made me a member.
You really need some policies. It's fine to have ideas, but there are basic laws and responsibilities to be considered.

2011-06-06 06:48:02
Rob Painting
Rob
paintingskeri@vodafone.co...
118.93.3.167

Paul, from what I gather so far, involvement is optional.  No need to fret.

2011-06-06 07:35:44All this is optional
John Cook

john@skepticalscience...
121.222.9.229
I'll set this up so people can opt in and opt out. I completely understand the desire for privacy for some, often for professional reasons.

Robert, how specific would your GIS map be? I don't want it to be so specific that cyber stalkers can track down SkS authors. I've never had an ugly incident with a denier yet - never received a threat or anyone track down my personal details and I'm guessing the polite tone of SkS helps. But as SkS increases in impact, that kind of stalking will likely increase.

2011-06-06 07:52:55
Riccardo

riccardoreitano@tiscali...
93.147.82.122

My full affiliation is in the Scientific Guide, so I don't mind having the pin in my town or not. For the rest of us, though, it's probably better to just scatter the pins accros the country at random.

I think we should agree on a least common denominator on the personal informations. I don't like much to have a list of names with different personal informations,as if someone's are worth giving while other's not. Being the basic idea to give a taste of the group, the list of nick, the country, the field of experties and eventually a picture will suffice.

2011-06-06 08:07:39
nealjking

nealjking@gmail...
91.33.118.33

Let's think a moment of what we are trying to accomplish.

wrt to Andy's comment:

"Showing Dana and other Ameicans located in Kansas, John & co at Alice Springs and Robert Way and me at Chuchill "the polar bear capital of the world" would be a bit misleading,"

Yes, I prefer it to be misleading: What business is it of anyone's where we are located? It gives no information of any value to the legitimate readers of SkS.

 

- I don't really see why there is any reason to be more specific than country: All we want to show is diversity of participation. It really doesn't matter whether someone is on west-coast North America or east-coast North America; it does matter whether s/he's north or south of the US/Canadian border. No one needs to worry about the politics of BC vs. Ontario; and anyway, you can't guess someone's politics from their city anyway.

- If there is NO LINKAGE between individual participants and specific locations, that is less objectionable; but my main point is above. If someone wanted to hunt down SkS participants, he could go to the nearest specificied location and start searching on the list of names.

- Participation in the listing must be strictly opt-in ( = out by default).

2011-06-06 10:10:42comment
Robert Way

robert_way19@hotmail...
142.162.12.211

John,
the map would not be specific. The lat/longs would not be published and the names of the person in that region would not be published. i'm implying an anonymous map...

so the map would just have dots and a legend saying Skeptical science authors depicted by dots (something more tactful obviously lol)

It would more or less have a global map and it would just have dots on the maps showing where there's an author. Nothing specific. Wouldn't indicate which city...etc... Many of us already have our credentials on the SKS guide, this would be much less intrusive

2011-06-06 15:00:59
dana1981
Dana Nuccitelli
dana1981@yahoo...
69.230.102.37

A denialist stalker isn't going to be able to do much with a map with a bunch of pins in it.  Just by seeing a pin in the Sacramento area they won't be able to tell exactly where it is, or that it represents the location of dana1981, etc.  But I think we all agree this should be an opt-in process.

2011-06-06 16:00:42Ok.
jyyh
Otto Lehikoinen
otanle@hotmail...
85.78.50.47

I think half a degree is accurate enough. jyyh may be visiting at nearby 60° 30′ N, 22° 30′ E soon. Actually, that is the about the location of the southernmost http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapland_Ringlet record in the last 30 years in Finland.

 

2011-06-06 17:34:27
Paul D

chillcast@googlemail...
82.18.130.183

The problem is that any intelligent determined person can collect data that appears to be disconnected and gradually build up a picture. We have all done it and some members here have posted IP addresses and other information about visitors to this site.

Also Dana isn't analysing the complete context. If there are few members in a particular country and those members have written comments that indicate where they live, then it doesn't take much work to pin point what town a member lives in.

eg. two members live in the UK and there are two pins on the map, one in the North of the country and one in the South then by reading a few comments it might be possible to determine that 'Jack H' lived in 'Milton Keynes'.

Then all you have to do is use an online directory (such as 192.com), enter a name and town and get a list of potential addresses for that person. Your one step away from a nutter conducting a campaign.

2011-06-06 22:14:42
nealjking

nealjking@gmail...
84.151.52.137

I haven't analyzed the situation as closely as Paul D, but my basic point is as follows:

- The more information we put out, the easier it will be for some maniac to find a way to track us down. Would that take a ridiculous amount of effort out of all proportion to value? Yes - unless you're a maniac. But those are the people we're worried about! Remember the threats to Australian climate researchers?

- There is absolutely no value to the legitimate reader to knowing whether Dana, or any other SkSer, is located in the SFBA or in Cambridge or Chicago or NYC.

- There MIGHT be value to the legitimate reader to knowing that Dana is American, not Australian. But maybe Dana doesn't want to advertise that.

- So I agree with anonymous pins; but I don't see ANY reason to approximate the location of these pins to real locations. If I'm in Germany, there is no reason that any reader needs to know if it's Berlin, Munich, or Stuttgart; and there's no reason that anyone needs to know if ANY SkSer is in Berlin, Munich or Stuttgart. To put it bluntly: This is a matter of personal security. Researchers have had their children threatened. Why are you trying to make life easier for the potential threateners?

2011-06-06 22:25:57
Glenn Tamblyn

glenn@thefoodgallery.com...
124.176.221.136

I agree with Neal. It isn't the vaste majority of skeptics we need to worry about. But there is a very small but real percentage that we DO need to worry about. Sadly there are some real whacko's out there. Limit to country only.  Don't forget James Hansen travels with security to public appearances these days.

2011-06-06 22:52:48
Daniel Bailey
Daniel Bailey
yooper49855@hotmail...
97.83.150.37

I agree with Paul & neal.  I was able to very confidently conclude the identity of one of our resident "skeptics" at SkS based upon the clues provided over many months.  So who's to say that someone out there couldn't do the same with one of us?  I know I've left little to hide over the years in my comments here.

My lat/long is here (way more accuracy than anyone should ever need):

http://wikimapia.org/#lat=46.550765&lon=-87.3919487&z=19&l=0&m=h

2011-06-06 22:55:09
Hoskibui

hoskibui@gmail...
194.144.161.27

I don´t mind if a pin is put down for me in Reykjavík Iceland where I live - every denier in iceland can find me easily anyway.

But I agree with the warnings of Paul, Neal etc. above - there are maniacs out there.

I would rather suggest that you put a fake pin in the map - for example, put a pin in Birmingham if somebody lives in Manchester :)

2011-06-07 00:45:02Request
Robert Way

robert_way19@hotmail...
142.162.12.211

Hey all. Those who would be okay with inclusion on the map please just forward your city and country.

I will do the collection of all the Lat/Longs and I won't be super exact with them either. I will round and approximate.

So far I have
Reykjavik, Iceland
Marquette, Michigan
Sacramento, California
Brisbane, Australia
St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador


I think doing a country map is interesting but including locations is a bit better. My reasoning is that it shows the diversity of our group. We aren't just a group of liberal elites from the big cities in every country. We are all diverse with diverse backgrounds and political views.

2011-06-07 01:14:28
Riccardo

riccardoreitano@tiscali...
192.84.150.209

Catania, Italy.  37° 31' 21'' N, 15° 04' 20'' E (coordinates of the Department of Physics and Astronomy)

2011-06-07 01:39:58
Alex C

coultera@umich...
67.149.101.148

While I recognize that lats/longs are now being collected, just to throw this suggestion out there before this is too underway, how about a map that, instead of one that uses pin points, uses a color-saturation scheme?  Like this, but with a global map.

That way we can show which countries contributors are from, and still not have to play darts with the locations.

Anyways, you can put me down - Sterling Heights, MI, USA. 42˚34'47"N 83˚1'41"W.

2011-06-07 01:40:31
BaerbelW

baerbel-for-350@email...
93.231.138.134

Fellbach, Germany - 48° 49′ N, 9° 17′ O

(question for John: do translators see the General Chat forum or would we need to reach out to them via the Translator-forum to see if others would like to be included?)

2011-06-07 01:50:19My place of residence...
John Hartz
John Hartz
john.hartz@hotmail...
99.95.221.238

Columbia, SC

2011-06-07 02:32:13
dana1981
Dana Nuccitelli
dana1981@yahoo...
64.129.227.4

Alex's idea of a color saturation map is interesting, if we have enough members opt-in to make it useful.  But I'm still fine with the pins.  If you're concerned, just give a different city in your state/country of origin.

2011-06-07 05:33:31
Andy S

skucea@telus...
66.183.188.172

Here's my coordinates 48.5 deg N 123.5 W which is 30 km or so from where i actually live. When I checked it to make sure that I hadn't put my location in the ocean I realized that it's about the same location as the place where the photo on the DeepClimate blog was taken from, looking North.

 

Everyone should realize that, unless they use an identity cloaker, everytime they post on a blog, the blog owner can see their IP address, which places everyone approximately. Watts uses this to out people sometimes.

2011-06-07 05:35:40
Andy S

skucea@telus...
66.183.188.172

Duplicate

2011-06-07 07:28:14
nealjking

nealjking@gmail...
84.151.52.137

Neal J. King: Germany

2011-06-07 09:20:56Translators accessing the forum
John Cook

john@skepticalscience...
121.222.9.229

Hmm, good point, up till now, translators can't access the General Chat forum. But I'll update that now so General Chat is more accessible.

UPDATE: my mistake, General Chat has always been accessible to the translators.

2011-06-07 18:45:08
Paul D

chillcast@googlemail...
82.18.130.183

"This is part of the reason why I retired by own blog, Watching the Deniers.

The day I was compared to a pedophile priest I knew I'd had enough. When my readers started to get ominous emails about being "visited" by sceptics - deniers - I knew I had to stop.

When the deniers started emailing the family members of my readers I knew it was enough. People who'd never read my blog, whose only crime was to have someone in their family read my blog...

This is the level we've reached.

So dear deniers who read this.. go on. Explain that behaviour. Give justification.

There is nothing, now form of low behaviour these people will resort too to intimidate, threaten and silence.

But will the Bolt's of the world stop and think of the hate they have created, the vile they have generated and the attack on science?

No... of course not.

Sadly, history will be the only judge. The Murdoch Hate machine grinds on, and on.

Moth and I have been discussing this the relentless assault on climate scientists and activists here:

https://newanthropocene.wordpress.com/2011/06/03/demonizing-the-forward-thinkers-a-mugs-game/

Posted by: Watching the deniers | June 7, 2011 12:37 AM"

 

Posted at Deltoid:
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2011/06/australian_climate_scientists.php

2011-06-08 06:05:38Map
Robert Way

robert_way19@hotmail...
134.153.163.190

Hey Alex,

The only issue with a map like that is that you require the provinces/states outlines for each country. It is feasible but getting the data for it isn't exactly the easiest. I will just make very big points so it shouldn't be a problem.

2011-06-08 07:34:02MAP
Robert Way

robert_way19@hotmail...
134.153.162.53

See the following link for the Map

2011-06-08 08:11:28
nealjking

nealjking@gmail...
84.151.46.56

I would guess Brisbane and San Francisco right away.

2011-06-08 08:21:21
dana1981
Dana Nuccitelli
dana1981@yahoo...
64.129.227.4

You guessed wrong (SF = Sacramento) :-)

2011-06-08 08:52:03
nealjking

nealjking@gmail...
84.151.46.56

But Rob H. lives in SF.

2011-06-08 09:39:09Comment
Robert Way

robert_way19@hotmail...
142.162.12.211

I think that there's a little too much worry here. Like literally they are dots on a map. The number of different authors on here is quite high and if a person wants to make a list of the authors and then guess which city/town is which and then search and search then fine... but that's life. If you search my name on google the first thing that comes up is me yet i've never had an email or anything occur because of my involvement here.

2011-06-08 09:47:37
Daniel Bailey
Daniel Bailey
yooper49855@hotmail...
97.83.150.37

I'm all over the Twice as Nice Canada thread for anyone who searches.

Whoopee.

2011-06-08 09:49:51
Daniel Bailey
Daniel Bailey
yooper49855@hotmail...
97.83.150.37

Map looks good...minor quibble , I guess:  the geographically challenged may need a political map instead of a geomorphology/landform map.

That way we can say SkS transcends borders.

2011-06-08 10:51:29Comment
Robert Way

robert_way19@hotmail...
142.162.12.211

I could overlay some political boundaries but I wonder if other people might think that would allow for too many specifics on location to be shown? I do agree somewhat with your point but I guess not including borders shows we are all global citizens rather than belonging to one country or another?

2011-06-08 10:53:41
Rob Painting
Rob
paintingskeri@vodafone.co...
118.93.0.111

Kerikeri, New Zealand for me.

2011-06-08 19:28:55
nealjking

nealjking@gmail...
84.151.46.204

Robert,

- What is the point of showing anything location-specific at all?

- The purpose is thinking ahead is to avoid problems, not so you can look back afterwards and realize the mistake. See, for example, this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jun/06/australia-climate-scientists-death-threats

They're getting the threats because they've been successful in having an impact. When those same maniacs think SkS is having an impact, the same threats will come.

2011-06-09 01:26:17
Rob Honeycutt

robhon@mac...
98.207.62.223

I'm actually in Berserkeley, but I think that's Dana's dot.  On a map that scale we're essentially made of the same dot.

2011-06-09 01:29:24
Rob Honeycutt

robhon@mac...
98.207.62.223

But if you want to squeeze me in...  I'm at:  37˚ 53' 21" N  and 122˚ 15' 38" W  ...but the hot tub is about 6 feet to the right of that.  ;-)

2011-06-09 15:34:40
Ari Jokimäki

arijmaki@yahoo...
192.100.112.211

I live in Espoo, Finland.