2011-02-17 06:49:27IPCC origins - question re: "thermomass"
citizenschallenge
Peter Miesler
citizenschallenge7@gmail...
166.164.147.114

Please refer to the recent post.

 ~ ~ ~

Hello folks, I'm not gone, just staying in the background. ;-)

 But I was wondering if anyone can help me locate some old articles regarding the formation of the IPCC.  My computer is pretty much my only resource (local libraries are small).  I'm just coming up with recent stuff.  My search skills are middling so any suggestions would be appreciated.

 Basically, I want to read some contemporary accounts, you know reporting on the G7 meetings and early discussions leading to developing the IPCC idea.  A trip down memory lane.

Incidentally, this is for another essay/column.  This one focused on the ICPP. 

~ ~ ~ 

PS.    I'm wondering if it would be OK to post it at the Communicating science board? ~ although this time I'll wait till it's nearly finished.  Like I said before: there is no hope of any quality without feedback.

 

cheers, Peter


2011-02-18 21:08:07
Ari Jokimäki

arijmaki@yahoo...
192.100.112.211

Report of the first session of the WMO/UNEP Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). That has something to do with WMO's World Climate Programme, although IPCC is only mentioned there as "Related Programmes and Activities".

I suggest that you use the advanced search of Google Scholar for peer-reviewed information.

2011-02-19 02:44:04Articles?
John Hartz
John Hartz
john.hartz@hotmail...
98.122.68.19
Are you looking for newspaper articles?
2011-02-19 03:45:59
citizenschallenge
Peter Miesler
citizenschallenge7@gmail...
205.201.209.6

Thank you Ari, I'll look at that.

 Badgersouth " Are you looking for newspaper articles?"

I think so, also magazine articles, I was curious about going back for the contemporary perspective on developing the IPCC.

2011-02-19 04:12:11citizenschallenge
John Hartz
John Hartz
john.hartz@hotmail...
98.122.68.19
Suggest that you search the archives of the NY Times and Time magazine. You can do both online.
2011-02-19 08:40:44question re: "thermomass"
citizenschallenge
Peter Miesler
citizenschallenge7@gmail...
205.201.209.6


I make no claims of scientific authority, though I believe I have a good grasp of the basics.
Thus, I’m asking if any of the following is objectionable from a serious scientific perspective.  In particular the highlighted sentence:

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
At the same time, the physics of CO2 made it clear that observed increasing levels of atmospheric CO2 would lead to increasing global temperatures. This conclusion was, and is, unavoidable given that greenhouse gases act as a thermo blanket of sorts. By increasing atmospheric CO2 we’re basically making our planet’s thermo blanket thicker. It’s simple indisputable physics.

Where things get complex is in mapping the full scope of the cascading affects flowing from the atmosphere’s increasing thermomass. This is where theories and models come into play, but theories and models need to be tested and refined. Something the increasing flood of incoming data was making possible.

FYI    “The IPCC. . . an essay”

~ ~ ~


B. I'll give it a try, thanks

2011-02-19 17:55:37The Discovery of Global Warming
James Wight

jameswight@southernphone.com...
112.213.164.22

Citizenschallenge, have you looked at Spencer Weart’s hyperlinked history “The Discovery of Global Warming”? It has a chapter on International Cooperation which you might find helpful (probably start here) and might have some useful references.

You could also try this searchable archive of newspaper articles.

2011-02-19 20:26:09
perseus

owlsmoor@googlemail...
78.143.197.93

Bert Bolin's book might be useful

A History of the Science and Politics of Climate Change: The Role of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change

This is referenced in Naomi Oreskes & Erik Conway's Merchants of doubt essential reading for climate historians (with a strong disposition)

By the late 80s Scientists like NASAs Bob Watson began to think that something like the Ozone Trends Panel was needed for global warming. It was Bert Bolin who organised the early IPCC structure.

2011-02-19 23:01:23What the heck is "thermomass" and what does it have to do with global warming?
nealjking

nealjking@gmail...
91.33.100.233
??
2011-02-20 07:09:12Thermomass. ... layman's perspective
citizenschallenge
Peter Miesler
citizenschallenge7@gmail...
205.201.209.6

CO2 absorbs infrared radiation gaining heat.  Higher concentration leads to higher heat retention;  Thermomass. 

... layman's perspective

 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Allow me a story.  For a couple decades I was a restauranteur.  All my servers where familiar with my thermomass spiel:

"A sweet old lady orders tea.  This requires a small pot and a cup.  If you merely fill that cold pot with the dispenser hot water, all that heat is absorbed by the cold pot, then when it finally gets to the table and that warm water gets added to the cold cup the guest is left with tepid dishwater... not what she ordered.  Think thermomass, preheat the pot and the cup, place the cup upside down to retain that heat.  Your guest will know it as she appreciates her hot cup of tea."

This simple outline/lesson about heat transfer has many other applications within kitchens and food service.

In construction there's the dramatic thermomass lesson.  Nothing sucks the heat out of your boots, feet and body like working on cold steel, because metal is so dense.  But, put a couple layers of cardboard under your feet and it's heaven.  It offers a visceral lesson of the dramatic difference substance density {and thermomass - ?} makes.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

CO2 makes it possible for the atmosphere to absorb and hold more heat - to me that property can be described as "Thermomass."

 The above is not an argument, I am describing my perspective/understanding and I am curious about what the serious scientific perspective has to say about it.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ 

 Thank you for pointing out Bolin's book, I just went through the table of contents at Amazon and I do need to make a point of getting my hands on it and reading it. ~ I've been meaning to get my hands on Merchants of Doubt for too long.  Though I have read a lot about Naomi's work and have listened to various lectures available on the web multiple times.

The Discovery of Global Warming”?  is a great site and it has been a regular resource for quite a while and it was part of my research for this recent essay.  {That is getting close to finished}

And I am ashamed to say I wasn't familiar with http://www.newspaperarchive.com/ thank you for the tip.

 

 

 

 

2011-02-20 07:53:55citzenschallenge
John Hartz
John Hartz
john.hartz@hotmail...
98.122.68.19
You're a good man Charlie Brown!
2011-02-20 09:49:16
nealjking

nealjking@gmail...
91.33.100.233

citizenschallenge,

I think the normal term for what you are trying to express is "heat capacity".

I suspect it would be better if you try to use generally accepted & standard terminology, rather than inventing your own terms. At SkS, we are generally trying to present standard science in comprehensible ways, we are not trying to re-invent it. If we take liberties with the creation of new terminology, how does the non-expert reader distinguish between what we invent and what WUWT invents?

I think we ran into this issue earlier regarding someone attributing a vector quality to weather. This is just not the way climate scientists think about weather or climate. We shouldn't be making it up as we go along.

2011-02-20 14:12:49?
citizenschallenge
Peter Miesler
citizenschallenge7@gmail...
166.164.146.188

That is why I am here bugging you folks. I am not suggesting you change anything about what you are thinking or doing.  I am here trying to learn from what you may have to share.

pm

 

PS. trying to connect with laymen thinking is key to any genuine progress in the political field regarding AGW education.  Metaphors have always been key to conveying knowledge.

It would be better for you to walk me through why my above metaphor falls short. Nealjking have you looked at that essay ? Where does it fall apart?

Is it just gibberish or is it worth offering some aid?

2011-02-20 19:11:05
nealjking

nealjking@gmail...
91.33.103.231

"At the same time, the physics of CO2 made it clear that observed increasing levels of atmospheric CO2 would lead to increasing global temperatures. This conclusion was, and is, unavoidable given that greenhouse gases act as a thermo blanket of sorts. By increasing atmospheric CO2 we’re basically making our planet’s thermo blanket thicker. It’s simple indisputable physics.

Where things get complex is in mapping the full scope of the cascading affects flowing from the atmosphere’s increasing thermomass. This is where theories and models come into play, but theories and models need to be tested and refined. Something the increasing flood of incoming data was making possible."

I am in favor of vivid writing, but I think you are taking too many liberties. I would try it as follows:

"At the same time, the physics of CO2 made it clear that observed increasing levels of atmospheric CO2 would lead to increasing global temperatures. This conclusion was, and is, unavoidable given that greenhouse gases inhibit loss of warmth - something like a blanket. By increasing atmospheric CO2 we’re basically making our planet’s blanket thicker. It’s well-understood physics.

Where things get complex is in mapping the full scope of the cascading effects following from the atmosphere’s increasing temperature and humidity. This is where theories and models come into play, but theories and models need to be tested and refined. Something the increasing flood of incoming data was making possible.
"

Also: I am not sure of the wisdom of targeting the Republicans so sharply. The current crop of Republicans are a problem, but we have to make it clear that the problem is not Republicanism but denialism.

 

 

2011-02-20 19:43:46
citizenschallenge
Peter Miesler
citizenschallenge7@gmail...
166.164.145.24

nealjking,

thank you, I appreciate that.

 

 *  Double thanks, except for dropping one word I used your corrections verbatim.

Peter

~ ~ ~ 

Also your comment regarding Republicans is well taken, but I'm steaming regarding those guys so can probably use some cold water in that regard.

~ ~ ~ 

But, this is political season and most the denialist stuff comes from that direction.