2011-02-11 05:13:30Beer-Lambert CO2 curve
John Hartz
John Hartz
john.hartz@hotmail...
98.122.68.19

A climate denier blogger posted the following in response to one of my posts on the comment thread to "GOP-EPA fight lives up to hype" article posted on Politico.com. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/49187.html

Fact: maybe you need to familiarize yourself with the Beer-Lambert CO2 curve, and the fact that CO2 rise FOLLOWS temperature rise by 800 to 1,000 years.

My response was the first paragraph and graph of “CO2 lags temperature - what does it mean?” Intermediate version by John Cook,

http://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-lags-temperature-intermediate.htm

My questions:

1. Is the Beer-Lambert CO2 curve presented and/or referenced in any of the articles posted on SkS.

2. Is the Beer-Lambert CO2 curve part of mainstream climate science?

2011-02-11 05:32:25
dana1981
Dana Nuccitelli
dana1981@yahoo...
38.223.231.252
The Beer-Lambert reference seems to be to the logarithmic relationship between CO2 and radiative forcing (and thus temperature).  See the explanation here and my post here.
2011-02-11 06:15:05
Paul D

chillcast@googlemail...
82.18.130.183

I have started posting Badger.

A tough bunch. Seems like there are few petrolheads there (British term for car fanatics) .

2011-02-11 09:49:24The Ville
John Hartz
John Hartz
john.hartz@hotmail...
98.122.68.19

Great posts! Thank you for joing in.

The Dahun is both a fanatic climate denier and proponent of maintaining the US dependency on "cheap" fossil fuels. I suspect is on somone's payroll. 

The majority of bloggers on Politico.com articles are Tea Party-Libertarian foot soldiers.

Politico.com itself has a rather conservative bent. 

2011-02-11 10:46:08
Paul D

chillcast@googlemail...
82.18.130.183

Another article about New York and Sea Levels, someone posted a link to a Watts article:

http://www.wnyc.org/articles/wnyc-news/2011/feb/09/climate-change/

The site doesn't need registration to leave a comment.

2011-02-12 04:10:44
Paul D

chillcast@googlemail...
82.18.130.183
Crumbs that Dahun is prolific. I think he might be having trouble taking on three people!
2011-02-13 02:40:08
Paul D

chillcast@googlemail...
82.18.130.183

Maybe Glenn could respond to Dahuns no. 60 comment here:

http://dyn.politico.com/members/forums/thread.cfm?catid=1&subcatid=1&threadid=5079282&start=31¤tPage=2#threadFormItem

2011-02-13 03:44:05
Paul D

chillcast@googlemail...
82.18.130.183
Geez, hasn't this Dahun character anything better to do??
Mind you, he or she seems to be getting rattled, with threats of reporting 'abuse'.
2011-02-13 03:45:23
MarkR
Mark Richardson
m.t.richardson2@gmail...
134.225.187.80

The Beer Lambert law is absolutely fundamental...

But you have to include re-emission, which the Beer Lambert law doesn't. So it's incomplete in the atmosphere. It's like looking at your income, ignoring your expenditure and deciding you must be getting rich.

2011-02-13 04:49:24
Paul D

chillcast@googlemail...
82.18.130.183

I've wasted an afternoon of my life on that Dahun character.

He just repeats the same crap.

It wouldn't surprise me if he had a big document, fully indexed and searchable, from which he cuts and pastes the garbage preset replies.
Might even be a bot!

Now there's a thought.

 

2011-02-13 05:58:41The Ville
John Hartz
John Hartz
john.hartz@hotmail...
98.122.68.19
Dahun definitely has a a file of pseudo-science that he cuts and pastes from. He and the NETDR are cut from the same cloth. Thanks for engaging him.  
2011-02-13 05:59:44MarkR
John Hartz
John Hartz
john.hartz@hotmail...
98.122.68.19
Where is the Beer-Lambert law spelled out?
2011-02-13 09:42:50
Paul D

chillcast@googlemail...
82.18.130.183
You can tell he is in it just for playing games.

You have to be really obsessed with politics to endlessly go on and on like that. It's quite disturbing really that anyone can be so obsessed with politics and a specific ideology.
2011-02-13 09:49:35
Paul D

chillcast@googlemail...
82.18.130.183
Here in the UK I'm actually helping to organise a 'Green' fare and week in cooperation with the local government, which has been rightwing (Tory) for many years. It's just not the same here. We even have some money from them to pay for publicity. They are still pro-small government but they aren't stupid when it comes to climate change. They signed up for the 10:10 carbon emissions cutting campaign.

I don't think I could cope with American politics for more than a few hours!
2011-02-13 10:22:48The Ville
John Hartz
John Hartz
john.hartz@hotmail...
98.122.68.19
Given Dahun's love affair with natural gas, I suspect that he may be in the employ of T. Boone Pickens.
2011-02-13 18:11:41
Glenn Tamblyn

glenn@thefoodgallery.com...
124.181.218.40

People talk about the 'dumbing down' of America. Perhaps that is manifesting itself most strongly in its politics.

I actually despair for America. A country with so much energy, so much to offer. But it is so trapped in its internal self-myths that it seems utterly paralysed. The old quote 'Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold... ' seems so apposite for America. 'God Save America'. Some one has to. The World needs it.

2011-02-13 21:18:31
Paul D

chillcast@googlemail...
82.18.130.183
On the issue of Politico.
They have a crap comment system.

If you don't register, you only see the first 20 comments.

So basically to hit the people that just read the articles, you need to get your comment(s) in the first 20.
After that, the discussion seems to degrade into a slagging match in the background.
2011-02-13 23:42:36
MarkR
Mark Richardson
m.t.richardson2@gmail...
134.225.187.80

Badgersouth: Wikipedia explains!

 

If you imagine a photon passing through a gas that has some absorbing molecules in it, then each 'layer' of gas you go through will have a certain fraction of absorbers in it. There is a probability that you will hit one of the absorbers and be sucked up, and this probability is the same for every 'layer'.

Let's say one layer is thick enough that there's a 50% chance it will absorb you. You go through 1 layer, only 50% of the photons will make it. Through 2, only 25%, through 3; 12.5%... etc. You make a graph of photons that get through versus distance and it has the Beer-Lambert equation, Wiki explains the mathematical derivation.

 

 

If the atmosphere didn't emit then the the light from the surface in CO2 suitable wavelengths would be used up in ~10 metres. So all of it is used up before it gets to space and adding more CO2 won't make a difference since there's no more light for it to absorb.

That is the 'skeptic' (I prefer to call it 'ignorant') argument, and it assumes no re-emission by the atmosphere. So either they're wrong, or they've just falsified quantum-electrodyanamics (which says that coupling to the vacuum field will lead to emission) or statistical physics (which says that under atmospheric conditions, re-emission at these wavelengths are possible) and they're in Nobel-prize-for-physics-land. Satellite measurements agree with physics, and not with the climate clowns.

 

It's exactly the same logic as ignoring the carbon cycle balance when saying that humans aren't causing CO2. Or ignoring your expenditure when working out your finances.

2011-02-14 01:02:20Mark R
John Hartz
John Hartz
john.hartz@hotmail...
98.122.68.19

Muchos gracias.

How about transforming your excellent explantion into a SkS rebuttal argument?

2011-02-14 02:09:55another analogy
nealjking

nealjking@gmail...
91.33.109.146

The idea that enough CO2 will just wipe out infrared photons when there is high enough concentration is based on a poor understanding, which can be characterized as follows:

Imagine shooting a blast of buckshot through a forest of leaves and flowers. As the buckshot hit the vegetation, their momentum is scattered away, and finally the blast is dissipated. This is one skeptic's view of how the CO2 greenhouse effect can be "saturated": Once enough CO2 is available to dissipate the upwards motion of the IR photons, additional CO2 cannot do anything else, right?

In reality, IR photons do not "die" upon absorption: they are radiated away again, in some random direction. A burst of IR photons is more like a swarm of bumblebees, stopping to visit a flower, and then moving on, in some random fashion, than a shotgun blast. The bumblebees don't stay in one place very long, they just keep moving on. So there is no "saturation".

 

2011-02-14 07:45:34
Paul D

chillcast@googlemail...
82.18.130.183
Well I did return.

looks like Dahun has lost the will to live!
Actually the whole thread looks quieter.
2011-02-14 08:43:36The Ville
John Hartz
John Hartz
john.hartz@hotmail...
98.122.68.19

You did indeed return. Well done.

If you want to set the record straight with Dahun and hoplite on the thread to another Politic.com article, go to:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/49247.html

2011-02-14 11:33:48
Glenn Tamblyn

glenn@thefoodgallery.com...
124.181.124.4

A comment I made to Dahun in this thread http://dyn.politico.com/members/forums/thread.cfm?catid=1&subcatid=55&threadid=5064054&start=61&CurrentPage=3

included this para

'As to Gore, whoever, 'scamming' anyone. Well Gore is just a mouthpiece. You don't use him as a basis for judgement, anymore than you use Rush Limbaugh. But are 100's of 1000's of scientists 'scamming' us. When Inuit villages in Canada have to be abandoned because melting permafrost has torn up the foundations are we being scammed? When ocean warming is being detected at the very bottom of the ocean abyss in the South Atlantic and Southern Indian Ocean, are we being scammed? When the Outgoing Longwave Radiation spectrum for the planet is changing in the frequencies associated with GH Gases are we being scammed? When the Stratosphere is cooling are we being scammed? When the change of the seasons is being altered by AGW, are we being scammed. When the oceans are accumulating heat at the rate of 2.5 Hiroshima Bombs PER SECOND, are we being scammed? 

And you have to admit, if this is a scam the IPCC are pulling, they are achieving prodigious results with a staff of 10.'

generated this response from someone calling himseelf extanker2

"But are 100's of 1000's of scientists 'scamming' us. Yes."

Nuff said really.


2011-02-14 13:40:50Our secret weapon
John Hartz
John Hartz
john.hartz@hotmail...
98.122.68.19
Time to bring in the Terminator!
2011-02-14 20:42:50
Paul D

chillcast@googlemail...
82.18.130.183

Hi Glenn

I added another comment (No. 83), in response to 'extanker':

http://dyn.politico.com/members/forums/thread.cfm?catid=1&subcatid=55&threadid=5064054&start=61¤tPage=3

I have probably broken a forum rule, but who cares!

2011-02-15 02:29:58The Ville
John Hartz
John Hartz
john.hartz@hotmail...
98.122.68.19
Dahun is back with a vengance this morning on Policico.com's 'CR may slash EPA, W.H. energy office." He has torn into some of your most recent posts. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/49383.html
2011-02-15 05:37:31
Paul D

chillcast@googlemail...
82.18.130.183

Looks like Dahun has been at it since 2007:

http://208.74.204.150/t5/user/viewprofilepage/user-id/42338

Although he seemed pro nuclear then.
He used the same planets avatar.

2011-02-15 05:48:34
Paul D

chillcast@googlemail...
82.18.130.183

This one is amusing. In 2008 Dahun was saying that the CRU was one of the most respected sources of data:

http://www.gardenrant.com/my_weblog/2008/07/guest-post-carb.html

"Please, you are not being honest. We have had the greatest drop in temperature ever recorded for one year, verified by all four of the world's most respected sources.
UK’s Hadley Climate Research Unit Temperature anomaly (HadCRUT) Dr. Phil Jones
The NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies(GISS) Dr. James Hansen
University of Alabama, Huntsville (UAH) Dr. John Christy
Remote Sensing Systems of Santa Rosa, CA (RSS)"



Back then he/she was using that data to justify cooling.
i'm assuming it is the same Dahun, it seems to have his fingerprint.

 

2011-02-15 17:05:39
Glenn Tamblyn

glenn@thefoodgallery.com...
60.230.54.222

Tee Hee

I Like it.

However, from tanker's tone, I suspect that the suggestion he might shooy himself in the foot with something as 'girly' as a pistol woukd have him reaching for his semi and a few clips.