2011-07-15 08:13:18One more crazy idea to add to the ever-growing list: using denier's quotes to debunk skeptic arguments
John Cook

john@skepticalscience...
121.222.9.229

Was listening to this hour long interview with Richard Lindzen and while being alternatively outraged by his misrepresentations and amused by the interviewer's struggle in keeping up with the scientific concepts, my ears pricked up at the point (somewhere toward the end) where Lindzen nails the issue of the tropospheric hot spot - the expectation of a hot spot is based on physical principles so the discrepancy between model and observations means the most likely explanation is measurement uncertainty. Lindzen explains this fairly well.

But this got me thinking - famous skeptics like Lindzen and Spencer (even Monckton!) often debunk the silliest skeptic arguments. What if we collect quotes like the above quote from deniers that debunk skeptic arguments and provide this as an easily accessible resource (eg - skeptic argument in the left column, denier quote in the right column). So when a denier throws a silly argument at you, you quote back Lindzen or Spencer at them.

This is quite an effective technique from a psychological (Science 3.0) point of view. People accept information from people who share their values. So skeptics are far more likely to be convinced by arguments from fellow skeptics.

Technically, very easy to add this functionality too - I'll just add a new field to the Quotes database - Bias. So you can set a quote to be skeptic or warmist. Then to display these quotes, I just select quotes set to warmist and display them alongside their skeptic argument.

UPDATE: went back and found the exact quote at the 55 minute mark:

There are some things the models get right. And there is one of the things they get right because we know why is that if you are warming the earth, the maximum rate of change occurs about 10 kilometres above the surface over the tropics. And the reason we know that's right is that follows something called the moist adiabatic lapse rate. The data does not confirm that. And so I would argue there that the models are right and there's something wrong with the data. It's because the data is violating the basic physical principles.

UPDATE #2: Okay, this is so quick and easy just to get the ball rolling that I couldn't resist doing a little bit of coding just to enable the process of quote collecting to begin. So if you're adding a quote to the quote database, you now need to select the Bias at the bottom of the form (I've set all existing quotes to Skeptic). If you set the Bias to 'Warmist', then the quote will appear on this page:

http://www.skepticalscience.com/skepticdebunk.php

This page just lists any warmist quote. In other words, a quote by a denier that debunks a skeptic argument. I will down the track do up a proper page that displays this better with the skeptic myth in the left margin and the quote in the right margin, with little photos and speech bubbles in a style similar to Plimer vs Plimer. But for now, I've just set up the infrastructure and a way to check what's already been added.

2011-07-15 11:26:46
dana1981
Dana Nuccitelli
dana1981@yahoo...
69.230.99.60
I remember a while back someone - I think it might have been Michaels or Singer - was talking about how 'skeptics' need to filter out the stupid arguments and focus on the real uncertainties. Will have to track that one down.
2011-07-15 14:47:09
dana1981
Dana Nuccitelli
dana1981@yahoo...
69.230.99.60

Found it, via CP from Climate Crock, and added quotes.  BTW it's "pro-AGW", not "warmist".

2011-07-15 17:01:46Cool quotes from Pat Michaels
John Cook

john@skepticalscience...
121.222.9.229
I remember someone, was it Spencer or McIntyre, saying the temp record shows the same trend as the satellites so get over it. It was at some denier conference. Can't remember details though :-(
2011-07-15 18:27:31
Rob Painting
Rob
paintingskeri@vodafone.co...
118.93.208.86

JC, that quote was from Pat Michaels again. It featured on the documentary Climate Wars narrated by Iain Stewart.

2011-07-16 12:18:33Quote
John Cook

john@skepticalscience...
121.222.9.229

No, this is something different - about how deniers are wrong to attack the surface temperature record because it matches the satellite record.

BTW, whipped up a new page that shows the 'warmist' quotes from skeptics in clearer fashion:

http://www.skepticalscience.com/skepticdebunk.php

Note: adding some Monckton quotes now...

2011-07-16 14:29:21
dana1981
Dana Nuccitelli
dana1981@yahoo...
69.230.106.238

That looks better.  I was going to say it looked a bit strange having both our one-liner rebuttal and the 'skeptic' rebuttal side-by-side without actually listing the myth.

2011-07-16 17:47:39That was just a stop gap measure
John Cook

john@skepticalscience...
121.222.9.229
Just a quick, nasty thing to see what warmists quotes had been added. But I needed to show it to somebody so needed to make the display more clear. Eventually might snazz this up with a Plimer vs Plimer style layout.

Was lying in bed last night, think about the database (as you do) and had a nice SkS2.0 idea. What about if you have an event where you have multiple deniers appearing. We get the database to spit out all quotes where deniers who are at the event contradict each other. It could be one denier say a skeptic quote and another denier contradict it with a warmists quote. Or two skeptic quotes that contradict each other from our database of contradiction pairs. If we have enough quotes in the database, should get lots of juicy contradictions from any of the more prolific deniers.

Another idea along these lines, extend the "Plimer vs Plimer" idea to "Denier vs Denier" which spits out all examples of contradictory quotes. Could go on for ages. Or add a filter, where you can select any two deniers to see how many times they contradict each other. Or get a little playful, create a "Bickering Deniers" feature which lists the denier pairs with the most contradictions.

All the data is in there (well, need to add more quotes but the potential is there). Just need to come up with creative ideas, ways to pull out the data in interesting ways that tell a story, catch people's interest, give it a unique, unexpected hook that grabs people's attention.

2011-07-17 00:51:46
dana1981
Dana Nuccitelli
dana1981@yahoo...
69.230.106.238
I like the denier vs. denier idea. For example, Carter loves the 'warming stopped in 1998' whereas Michaels basically said that's a stupid argument that deniers need to stop making in order to be taken seriously. So basically Michaels called Carter an idiot :-)
2011-07-21 09:20:08denier quotes in wikipedea
Sarah
Sarah Green
sarah@inlandsea...
67.142.177.21

Surprisingly, wikipedia has a decent list of deniest quotes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming

2011-07-24 15:15:03
Same Ordinary Fool

chicagoriverturning@gmail...
184.98.21.140

John Cook (Re: 12:18PM)...............Apparently in response to a question like the one you asked for, Fred Singer once said something like part of the quote you want:  "I Don't argue with thermometers." 

I've watched it a coupla times, which suggests that it's several years old, and from a Crock of the Week or from Potholer 54. 

I've read what you're asking for recently, and this ain't it.  But you might find this quote similarly useful.

{I like this editing feature.  Maybe I can go back in time and become more careful.}

Googling the quote gets 3 pages of entries.  Fred Singer's use is apparently with regards to Climategate's "the trick".  These same words were also apparently used by John Christy, Roy Spencer and Richard Lindzen!