2011-08-04 19:29:56GHG mitigations solutions for the right wing
scaddenp

p.scadden@gns.cri...
203.173.156.40

I have created my first post here:

GHG mitigation solutions for the right wing?

I am very aware that this is not about the science but it does look to trying to find solutions that are acceptable to the political right, so I am hoping the John will think it a useful addition to the blog.

2011-08-05 09:08:00
Andy S

skucea@telus...
66.183.179.249

Phil,

Have you read Grypo's SkS article on Libertarians and climate change?

I would also refer you to the writings of Tokyo Tom, who is an enviro-libertarian.

I think you may be risking having people call your characterization of libertarians a straw-man approach, although I would agree that that many self-styled "libertarians" in the US fit your mold perfectly.

From having discussions elsewhere with libertarian climate skeptics and asking them the same question that you pose, many of them are OK with the idea of Pigovian taxes, providing they are revenue-neutral. What they fear are bureaucrats runing their lives, not well-structured economic incentives. But my sample is not unbiased, since I avoid debating anything with crazy people.

2011-08-05 12:02:26
scaddenp

p.scadden@gns.cri...
161.65.53.59

Thanks Andy - I did not see that article and info it points too is very interesting. As to straw-man, I am summerising from self-characterizations of right-liberatarians from CATO, Libertarian Party and Long's writings. I've had discussions with a number of libertarians (ongoing) which prompted this article.  I've encountered fierce resistance to "fee and dividend" which would seem to be a revenue neutral pigovian tax. However, I think it is worth mentioning.

 

The Tokyo Tom link is GREAT. He also notes the reflexive denialism but puts forwards some very reasonable suggestions. I will do a bit of a re-write to incorporate some of this. Thanks very much for this very valuable comment.

2011-08-05 12:56:25
scaddenp

p.scadden@gns.cri...
161.65.53.59

Talk about short term memory - I even commented on gypo's post. Okay, more work to re-frame this so it doesnt get bogged down on pro-cons of different political ideologies.

2011-08-06 00:06:08
grypo

gryposaurus@gmail...
108.34.130.66

RE what Andy is saying -- One of the things I wish I had done in my article was to better explain the differenece between real libertarians, ie those who want to maximize liberty in the context of the greater society, and pseudo-liberatrians who think the market is a free-for-all and anything less is tyranny.  The 2nd group are promoted by the conservative media.  The problem with doing so, is that you are going to piss off the people you are trying to reach.  This is why I framed it in a ethics and values that they themselves promote, ie protection of property.  Adler's paper was perfect for that.  It's a hard line to balance on from the outside.

2011-08-06 15:01:50
scaddenp

p.scadden@gns.cri...
203.173.156.40

Yeah, that reason why I shose to define Right-libertarian. However, I am having a re-think on article. What I want is a place to make the challenge at the bottom so I will have a go at shutting out avenues for spurious dispute. grypo made a good job of summerising the problem for libertarians but response was largely to complain that anyone supporting any of those solutions werent real liberatarians. It didnt result in any offers of what the solutions they would accept - which just confirms the reflexive denial. Eric Pederson by the way posted that he had taken the discussion to email, but in fact this hasnt happened. 

2011-08-07 03:57:31
dana1981
Dana Nuccitelli
dana1981@yahoo...
69.230.106.125

Yeah the trick is in defining the group of people you're trying to reach here.  The problem I've found is that many who oppose carbon pricing do so because they feel any taxes are an infringement upon their rights/liberties.  That's the mindset of the right-wing today.  As we saw in the recent debt ceiling "negotiations" (if you can even call it that when one side gives in to everything the other side wants), the right-wing is completely opposed to any new taxes for any reason whatsoever.

I went into the post and made some minor edits, added some links.  There's one sentence that's missing a key word:

"In the USA, less than one quarter of energy use is residential anyway, and only about one of that drives gadgets."  One what?

"As far as I can see, libertarian theory struggles with issues where the free action of many individuals results in a rights violation" - do you mean a violation of the human rights of others?

2011-08-07 11:20:42
scaddenp

p.scadden@gns.cri...
203.173.156.40

Thank Daniel. I'll fix both of those now. 

The group of people I am trying to reach is those who skepticism is a reflex to proposed solutions.

2011-08-09 18:26:58
scaddenp

p.scadden@gns.cri...
203.173.156.40

Okay, somewhat reworked. I think I am about ready to add this to the schedule. How do I do this?

2011-08-09 18:43:30
Rob Painting
Rob
paintingskeri@vodafone.co...
118.93.228.133

Dana or JC will fit it into the schedule Phil. Nice read, by the way.