2011-01-13 08:59:05Crux of a Core... Bob Carter
Rob Honeycutt

robhon@mac...
98.207.62.223

 

I'm working a little with Peter Sinclair on this piece.  He has said he would like to do a video on Bob Carter and noted that Carter also uses the GISP2 record in his lectures.  

I did some research and looked into Carter's claims and found what, to me, seems to be some pretty shocking stuff.

So, I've written a second companion piece to follow the one regarding J Storrs Hall's misuse of the GISP2 data.

Please have a read and let me know what you think...

http://www.sniktech.com/cruxofacore2.html 

2011-01-13 09:53:19comments
dana1981
Dana Nuccitelli
dana1981@yahoo...
38.223.231.252

Nice research.  A few comments:

1) The word "continues" in the sentence "Grootes 1993 continues to state that..." is a bit confusing.  It sounds like it's something he's said several times in the paper and continues to state.  I'd change it to either "Grootes 1993 states...." or "Grootes 1993 proceeds to state..."

2) "This directly contradicts the assertions that Carter makes suggesting that there are large, clear fluctiations in the Holocene record."

This is the first you mention of Carter suggesting there are large fluctuations in the Holocene temperature record.  If that's what he's saying in his presentation, it's worth mentioning up front so that when you're talking about the stability of the Holocene, it's clear that this contradicts Carter's claims.  Otherwise you're refuting his argument before providing it to the reader, and it's a bit confusing.

3) "ax" => "axe"

4) If we're going to publish this on SkS, you should probably tone down the ending.  It's fine to say that Carter is misrepresenting his sources, and a PhD scientist should know better, but I'd leave it at that so you're not attacking him too much.  Stick to the science and where he's got it wrong.

2011-01-13 10:01:27
Rob Honeycutt

robhon@mac...
98.207.62.223

Thanks Dana.  I have to admit, as I was researching this I started getting more and more angry and Carter.  The first time I watched his lecture he merely seemed like an old crank.  As I looked into what he was saying it became clear that he is deliberately misleading people.

I'll tone it down a bit and "ax" you guys to look at it again.  ;-) 

2011-01-13 10:15:10
Rob Honeycutt

robhon@mac...
98.207.62.223

 

Updated... 

2011-01-13 11:35:31
nealjking

nealjking@gmail...
84.151.36.80
Why do you use the term "ironically"?
2011-01-13 11:40:25
Rob Honeycutt

robhon@mac...
98.207.62.223

 

Ironically because this is a field of science more closely related to Carter's education than for Hall.

 

2011-01-13 17:54:09Looks good, Rob
John Cook

john@skepticalscience...
121.222.100.112

Two things.

Firstly, Rob, don't buy a paper - ask here or email me and we'll get hold of the full paper for you. :-)

Second, does anyone know of a global reconstruction spanning the Holocene? Would be great to show this as a contrast compared to Carter's Greenland graph. But I don't know if such a thing is readily available.

2011-01-13 17:57:02Coordinating with Peter
John Cook

john@skepticalscience...
121.222.100.112

Also, I'm a big, big fan of more coordination between different parties. Particularly hitting different mediums like Peter on YouTube and us doing blog posts. I wonder if it would be worthwhile making this an ongoing arrangement with Peter - perhaps as he works on a new video, one of the SkS authors could work on a corresponding blog post and we launch at the same time - including his video in our blog post to give it an extra kick along.

Rob, if you think this is worthwhile, do you want to float the idea by Peter when you next correspond?

Oh and thumb from me.

2011-01-13 19:55:33Contacting Peter
John Cook

john@skepticalscience...
121.222.100.112
Rob, I just emailed Peter, this idea intrigues me (another to possibly add to the 2011 plan). I CCed you also.
2011-01-14 03:50:09
Rob Honeycutt

robhon@mac...
98.207.62.223

I love that idea, John.  I think it will expand the capacity and reach for both.  I get the feeling that Peter gets overwhelmed with doing his own work and keeping up with the videos, which he obviously has a great passion for.  Probably the bottleneck for him is all the research required to compete a single accurate and well sourced video.  Maybe this can help alleviate that bottleneck and help him get videos out easier.

It's really too bad that Miller 2010 didn't do a graph of the Holocene with all the lines of evidence they list.  It's well beyond my skill set to pull together a chart of that on my own.  I tried once to contact the guy who produced the Holocene graphic that I used but I never got a response back.  His company is called Global Warming Art.  Most of the graphs on wikipedia are his.  Very nice work.

http://www.globalwarmingart.com/wiki/Temperature_Gallery 

That's great to know about papers.  I've spent way too much buying papers in the past couple of years. 

2011-01-17 10:08:50
Rob Painting
Rob
paintingskeri@vodafone.co...
118.93.252.103
Rob, great work, but I wonder if some of the language can be simplified?. Antiphased? I don't think you should assume that people who read this, go back and read chapter one. Perhaps it should be made more obvious why the ice cores from Greenland & Antarctica might "see-saw" earlier in the Holocene and not so today. 
2011-01-17 11:48:33
Rob Honeycutt

robhon@mac...
98.207.62.223

Good thought Rob.  

I'm now waiting for Peter Sinclair to get some extra time to work up a video to go along with these two pieces.  That may be a couple of weeks.

I'd also note that I've only worked through the first 6 mins of Carter's lecture.  He's got a lot more material to debunk.  The very next slide in his presentation seems to be another case of him making up his own graph and citing other authors.  That slide he cites Alley 2004 but I've not been able to track that down as anything different than just the normal GISP2 data. 

2011-01-17 14:10:42A series on Carter
John Cook

john@skepticalscience...
121.222.100.112

Okay, just throwing this idea out there. What if after we finish the Monckton series (or have them both going as ongoing series to return to whenever we feel like it), we do a new series:

Carter's Crocks

Perhaps we could kick it off with Carter Crock #1: the Greenland ice core

Ties in nicely with Peter's Crock of the Week theme. Thoughts, comments?

Also, I heard back from Peter, he is interested in the idea of SkS and Crock combining efforts. He just seems flat out at the moment so we'll explore the idea more fully when he gets time to catch a breath. 

So I was thinking about this idea of trying to coordinate a single message across different mediums - blog and YouTube video and wondered what other mediums we could cover. What about podcasts? I wonder if it's practical to coordinate with The Climate Show also? And/or with Dan Moutal's Irregular Climate.

2011-01-17 16:09:52
Rob Honeycutt

robhon@mac...
98.207.62.223
I like that idea, John.  There's a TON of material to go over with Carter. 
2011-01-18 15:06:05The disinformation skeptics
John Cook

john@skepticalscience...
121.222.100.112

Perhaps we should consider series focusing on the "disinformation deniers". The ones who just vomit out any old rubbish. Hold them accountable. Monckton, Bob Carter, Pat Michaels, Ian Plimer. The worst of the bad bunch. Make them so toxic, even skeptic blogs will think twice before reposting their stuff.

I guess we'll see how Monckton Myths matures and if it is effective, we'll consider this idea.

2011-01-19 06:55:15myths series
dana1981
Dana Nuccitelli
dana1981@yahoo...
38.223.231.252

Prior to seeing this discussion I actually started a thread regarding whether we should branch out the Myths series to include other 'skeptics' (others have suggested Lindzen and Motl).  See here.