2010-09-10 00:26:31Basic rebuttal 104: Southern sea ice is increasing - REVISION 3
James Wight

jameswight@southernphone.com...
58.105.164.221

This is the original version. See below, or here, for the latest revision.

Here is my first attempt at a basic version of this rebuttal. I’d particularly appreciate feedback on the opening paragraph about sea ice vs land ice. I thought I’d better include a note making this distinction, but I’m trying to phrase it in such a way that it won’t sound condescending to more sophisticated readers.

Also, I’ve taken the liberty of adding some info that wasn’t in the intermediate rebuttal but I thought was important. I hope John Cook doesn’t mind.

The skeptic argument: Southern sea ice is increasing

What the science says: Antarctic sea ice has grown in recent decades despite the Southern Ocean warming at the same time.

First of all, it’s worth remembering that sea ice is not to be confused with land ice. This distinction might seem obvious, but the two are often confused in media reports. Sea ice is frozen seawater floating on the surface, whereas land ice is a layer of snow that has accumulated over time on a landmass. Antarctica is losing land ice at an accelerating rate. However, the extent of sea ice around the coast of the continent is indeed growing. Why?

The most intuitive explanation is that the Southern Ocean must be cooling. But on the contrary, the Southern Ocean has warmed by around 0.5°C in the three decades since satellites began measuring sea ice trends. The true reasons for the increasing ice are more complex.

Paradoxically, it may in part be caused by the warming of the Southern Ocean: a warmer ocean means more water being evaporated from the surface and falling as snow near the coast of Antarctica. Another contributing factor is that the ozone hole above the South Pole has altered wind patterns around Antarctica, which in turn affect the formation of sea ice. Both of these trends are expected to reverse in coming decades as the Antarctic continues to warm and the ozone hole repairs itself.

Finally, when it comes to climate change, southern sea ice is not as important as you might think. Unlike land ice, sea ice doesn’t affect sea levels because it’s already displacing water. And unlike Arctic sea ice, a decline in southern sea ice wouldn’t greatly change the local climate. The Southern Ocean is already almost ice-free in summer, and in winter it receives too little heat from the Sun for a change in the reflectivity of the surface to have a large effect.

In conclusion, increasing southern sea ice in no way contradicts global warming. The Southern Ocean is warming, the changes in sea ice are due to a variety of factors, and southern sea ice is not that important to climate change anyway.

2010-09-10 02:14:44nice
dana1981
Dana Nuccitelli
dana1981@yahoo...
38.223.231.249
Looks good.  I'd suggest adding a reference to substantiate the statement that the Southern Ocean has warmed 0.5°C over the past 30 years - maybe even a graph or temperature map to jazz the post up a bit.  You can also support the ozone statement by referencing Turner et al. (2009).  And it might also be good to point out that Arctic sea ice decline is significantly larger than the Antarctic sea ice increase in the penultimate paragraph.
2010-09-10 06:11:47Suggestions.
villabolo

villabolo@yahoo...
76.93.65.8

Mentioning the 'increased heat -> warmer ocean -> more evaporation -> more snow' is digressive. It is not tied in to the issue as worded in the title. I do realize that when one issue is mentioned the other comes up. However, either the increased ice rebuttal gets a thread of its own or, if JC approves, he may change the title to "Antarctica's ice is increasing on sea and land". You may want to suggest that idea to him.

I would go for the second suggestion since both issues are intertwined and the rebuttals should be consolidated. We would kill two birds with one stone. 

Of more importance is the issue of the wind and how it causes the ice to increase in spite of slightly warmer waters. You should drop the Ozone reference. People might get stuck on that issue, start asking why the Ozone would increase winds and digress from the sea ice issue. Mentioning and then elaborating on the Ozone issue is more of an Intermediate and Advanced Level subject.

I would simply make reference to the fact that the wind is blowing harder and actually explain how that causes increased ice formation. That is an intuitively obvious explanation which the uneducated public can visualize. Just saying "...affect the formation of sea ice." is not a satisfactory answer as far as explaining the basics of this issue. By the way, not to be a nitpick, "affect" should be "effect." "Affect" is used in human interactions, "effect" is used in any non-human interaction.

Basically my advise is to expand and explain and elaborate on how the wind creates more ice in spite of slightly warmer waters. Leave the ozone issue for Intermediate and Advanced.

One final suggestion. You may want to make brief mention, at the beginning of your rebuttal, that Deniers have lost the argument about the Arctic meltdown; and have now started using Antarctica as a distraction to take the public's attention away from an issue of far more importance. 

VILLABOLO 

  

 

2010-09-10 22:19:51Revised rebuttal
James Wight

jameswight@southernphone.com...
58.105.164.221
There is a revised version of the rebuttal at the bottom of this post.

dana1981, most of the basic rebuttals are light on references. I figure that since those claims are referenced in the intermediate version anyway it doesn’t really matter.

villabolo, more snow on land is actually not what I was talking about; I meant the water was returning to the ocean surface as snow. I’ve reworded it to try and clarify, and have also removed the part about ozone. I have added a bit about southern sea ice being a distraction, not at the beginning as you suggested, but in the penultimate paragraph.

Here is the revised version:

The skeptic argument: Southern sea ice is increasing

What the science says: Antarctic sea ice has grown in recent decades despite the Southern Ocean warming at the same time.


First of all, it’s worth remembering that sea ice is not to be confused with land ice. This distinction might seem obvious, but the two are often confused in media reports. Sea ice is frozen seawater floating on the surface, whereas land ice is a layer of snow that has accumulated over time on a landmass. Antarctica is losing land ice at an accelerating rate. However, the extent of sea ice around the coast of the continent is indeed growing. Why?

The most intuitive explanation is that the Southern Ocean must be cooling. But on the contrary, the Southern Ocean has warmed by around 0.5°C in the three decades since satellites began measuring sea ice trends. The true reasons for the increasing ice are more complex.

Paradoxically, it may in part be caused by the warming of the Southern Ocean: a warmer ocean means more water being evaporated from the surface and falling as snow further south. Another contributing factor is that changing wind patterns around Antarctica have moved sea ice around, opening up gaps to be filled by newly-formed ice. Both of these trends are expected to reverse in coming decades as the Antarctic continues to warm.

Finally, when it comes to climate change, southern sea ice is not as important as you might think. Unlike land ice, sea ice doesn’t affect sea levels because it’s already displacing water. And unlike Arctic sea ice, a decline in southern sea ice wouldn’t greatly change the local climate. The Southern Ocean is already almost ice-free in summer, and in winter it receives too little heat from the Sun for a change in the reflectivity of the surface to have a large effect. Southern sea ice is really just a distraction which diverts our attention from the far more important issue of Arctic sea ice melt.

In conclusion, increasing southern sea ice in no way contradicts global warming. The Southern Ocean is warming, the changes in sea ice are due to a variety of factors, and southern sea ice is not that important to climate change anyway.
2010-09-10 23:11:55Style
nealjking

nealjking@gmail...
91.33.124.196

James Wight,

This piece is written in an "everything you know is wrong" style that tends to undermine the reader's faith in normal reasoning. Everything is presented as surprising: unintuitive, paradoxical, and finally, asymmetrical (Antarctic not treated on equal footing with Arctic). I think this style will not encourage the reader's confidence that he's finally getting the real scoop.

Some specific changes I would suggest:

-  "The most intuitive explanation is that the Southern Ocean must be cooling. But on the contrary, the Southern Ocean has warmed by around 0.5°C in the three decades since satellites began measuring sea ice trends." I would rather lean towards something like, "One's first thought is that the Southern Ocean must be cooling. In actual fact, it has warmed 0.5 C in the last three decades; however, this warming gives rise to increased evaporation from the ocean, more of which is precipitated out as snow in the Antarctic." I don't quite follow the next point about moving ice around. Anyway, these first two points explain why the increase in Antarctic sea-ice coverage isn't an indicator of cooling.

-  The next paragraph speaks to the impact of Southern Ocean sea ice, rather than what it reveals:I would not say, "southern sea ice is not as important as you might think. ": It sounds like special pleading. "Antarctic sea ice has less impact on the changing climate than does Arctic sea ice, because for the last X years, it has been largely absent during the most important period for sunshine, the summertime." To me, that seems a bit more straightforward.


Finally, when it comes to climate change, southern sea ice is not as important as you might think. 

2010-09-10 23:14:31Oops
nealjking

nealjking@gmail...
91.33.124.196

The sentence at the bottom of the previous post:

"Finally, when it comes to climate change, southern sea ice is not as important as you might think. "

should have been erased!

 

While I'm posting again: I would omit the point about floating sea ice vs. land ice. It's not relevant to the comparison between Arctic and Antarctic situations.

2010-09-11 12:49:50
Rob Painting
Rob
paintingskeri@vodafone.co...
118.93.150.110

James,

3rd paragraph beginning "Paradoxically............a warmer ocean means more water being evaporated from the sea surface and falling as snow further. This increase in snowfall causes a reduction in sea surface salinity & less mixing of the surface with heat from the waters below. The result is cooling of the sea surface and an increase in sea ice production during the Antarctic winter." or something along those lines, you could probably word it much better than I have.

(for the intermediate version) The increase in Antarctic snowfall is documented in Markus & Cavalieri (2006) "interannual & regional variability of Southern Ocean snow on sea ice"( full version available atwww.igsoc.org/annals/44/a44A074pdf.) I've yet to locate any studies measuring reductions in sea surface salinity, hopefully the satellites will start to build a reliable record of sea surface salinity in the near future. 

I agree with Neal's amendments, although I differ on the land/sea ice explanation. I think it's important to stress the difference between land and sea ice, given this is a basic version. Definitely change the end sentence, it looks like you are dismissive because the trend is inconvenient, despite the fact you've detailed why in the preceding paragraphs. (Tinfoil hat perspective). Maybe insert an extra paragraph (2nd) pointing out the obvious differences in geography contributing to the asymmetric trends?. 

Not far off I reckon. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2010-09-12 16:54:43A few minor points
gpwayne
Graham Wayne
graham@gpwayne...
86.158.204.104

This is good James. I think there are a few points worth clarifying though:

Your 'first of all' point is ancilliary - a bit of background. It could come last instead like a footnote, because I would say 'first of all, it is clear the sea ice is increasing'. This is a really important point to concede right off, I believe; failing to concede this early on and very clearly can be taken to be obfuscation, ducking behind issues about land and sea ice (I know you're not doing this, I'm just saying...). And be careful about land ice losses - Wu's work combining GPS and Grace data calls the rates and acceleration into question. We know so little about the Antarctic, and what we do know is changing quite fast as more and better research is done, so caution and equivocation must be the order of the day in my view.

I do think there is something missing here, which perhaps you could mention. While you correctly point out that no sea level rises will occur due to melting sea ice, you make it sound like it's not very useful as a measure of anything (at either pole). The significance of sea ice - all of it - is the albedo effect, which is really important when thinking about feedbacks (not so much down south because the ice melts in summer, of course, and winter sun is very weak indeed). But mainly - and in the public discourse - sea ice is valuable because it is a relatively easy way to (literally) see what's going on. I described it once as a natural thermometer - sea ice extent is a visual sign of climate changes, which is why it gets a lot of press.

This statement is strange: "a decline in southern sea ice wouldn’t greatly change the local climate". The link does not say that James, or anything like it. I find the remark to be very speculative and not supported by any evidence I am aware of. I don't think we know enough about the Antarctic, the effects of the ozone hole, or the ocean heat distribution, to make such a claim.

2010-09-12 22:21:20Have read your suggestions
James Wight

jameswight@southernphone.com...
58.105.164.221

Hi to everybody,

I have read all your suggestions and will think them over.

2010-09-13 18:24:46Suggestions, suggestions.
villabolo

villabolo@yahoo...
76.93.65.8

Paradoxically, it may in part be caused by the warming of the Southern Ocean: a warmer ocean means more water being evaporated from the surface and falling as snow further south. Another contributing factor is that changing wind patterns around Antarctica have moved sea ice around, opening up gaps to be filled by newly-formed ice. Both of these trends are expected to reverse in coming decades as the Antarctic continues to warm.

I would drop the word paradoxically. It adds an extraneous line of thought-"Hmm, why is it paradoxical?"

You may want to drop the increased snow argument for purely psychological reasons. Depending on their motivation, and how distracting the rest of their lives is; they are likely to remember only one argument well. With two or more, the arguments get fuzzy in their minds.

Nevertheless, for those who may be motivated to look into things deeply; I recommend as a general principle for all Basic rebuttals the following. State that there are other factors and then hyperlink that statement to Intermediate level. I think that with some judicious hyperlinking, throughout the rebuttals, we can encourage the public to see other related issues and expand their knowledge and interest.

If you were to keep both arguments, I would consider reversing the order of the two. The wind argument should go first. In my opinion, this argument may be the one that makes the best impression on the public.


"...and southern sea ice is not that important to climate change anyway."

I would, as others suggested, drop that part. As for the entire last paragraph...

"In conclusion, increasing southern sea ice in no way contradicts global warming. The Southern Ocean is warming, the changes in sea ice are due to a variety of factors, and southern sea ice is not that important to climate change anyway."

...I would suggest changing the it something like:

In conclusion, increasing sea ice does not contradict global warming. The Antarctic sea ice is increasing in spite of a slightly warmer ocean for a variety of reasons (Hyperlink to intermediate.). The most important one is that the increase in winds continuously pushes back older ice therefore making greater amounts of newly formed ice.

2010-09-13 18:52:03Wind & Ice connection
nealjking

nealjking@gmail...
91.33.124.246
I think a bit more explanation is needed. I don't have a clear picture of how this works.
2010-09-16 11:29:35I was thinking...
Robert Way

robert_way19@hotmail...
142.162.13.137
I was thinking that perhaps with this rebuttal we should be combining the Antarctica is gaining ice and the southern sea ice is increasing into the same post and then link to the same rebuttal for each... It might help alleviate some of the extensive overlap and could be a solution in the future? Any thoughts?
2010-09-17 23:03:27Two separate arguments
James Wight

jameswight@southernphone.com...
58.105.164.221
Robert, I think they are two separate arguments. “Antarctica is gaining ice” is more general and the people who use it often confuse land ice and sea ice. The argument “Southern sea ice is increasing” is used more specifically as a diversion from the decrease in Arctic sea ice.

As for everybody else’s suggestions – I have been very busy this week, but will have another look at this rebuttal over the weekend.
2010-09-21 21:56:26
doug_bostrom

dbostrom@clearwire...
184.77.83.151

Some excellent visualizations and some likely helpful discussion of this issue, here:

 http://www.scar.org/publications/occasionals/ACCE_25_Nov_2009.pdf 

2010-09-30 20:53:05Finally got around to revising the rebuttal
James Wight

jameswight@southernphone.com...
58.105.164.221

Everyone’s probably forgotten about this rebuttal by now, but anyway I finally got around to revising it.

Neal, I have tried to tone down the “everything you know is wrong” aspect. (It is a bit like that though because there do seem to be a lot of popular misconceptions about sea ice.)

I still think the penultimate paragraph (about the effect of southern sea ice on the climate) is important but I have tweaked it a bit to try and make it sound less like special pleading.

I also thought I should explicitly make the point that sea ice melt doesn’t contribute to sea level rise, because people are always getting sea ice and land ice mixed up.

Dappledwater, I can’t find a place to mention the differences in geography between the two poles, but anyway I don’t think they’re particularly relevant. The point is the Southern Ocean is already nearly ice-free in summer.

Graham, when I say “a decline in southern sea ice wouldn’t greatly change the local climate”, what I’m getting at is it won’t amplify the warming like in the Arctic. And the page I link to does say this:
“Finally,
even if wintertime Antarctic sea ice were to increase or decrease significantly in the future, it would not have a huge impact on the climate system. This is because during the Antarctic winter energy from the sun is at its weakest point; its ability or inability to reflect the sun’s energy back into space has little affect on regulating the planet’s temperature.
However, I have reworded this bit to try and make it clearer.

I have adopted Villabolo’s suggestion of only mentioning one factor. However, I am uneasy about doing this without mentioning the ozone connection – readers will probably be asking “Hang on, why have these wind patterns suddenly changed at exactly the right time for it to explain the increasing sea ice?”

Doug, I don’t mean to be ungrateful, but is there any particular part of that 500-page document you’re referring to? Perhaps it would be a better resource for the advanced version of this rebuttal?

Okay, here is version 3:

 

The skeptic argument: Southern sea ice is increasing

What the science says: Antarctic sea ice has grown in recent decades despite the Southern Ocean warming at the same time.

First of all, it’s worth remembering that sea ice is not to be confused with land ice. This distinction might seem obvious, but the two are often confused in media reports. Sea ice is frozen seawater floating on the surface, whereas land ice is a layer of snow that has accumulated over time on a landmass. Antarctica is losing land ice at an accelerating rate.

However, it is clear that the extent of sea ice around the coast of the continent is growing. Why? The first explanation which comes to mind is that the Southern Ocean must be cooling. But on the contrary, the Southern Ocean has warmed by around 0.5°C in the three decades since satellites began measuring sea ice trends.

The true reasons for the increasing ice are a complex set of factors. One of these is that changing wind patterns around Antarctica have moved sea ice around, opening up gaps to be filled by newly-formed ice. However, this trend is expected to reverse in coming decades as the Antarctic continues to warm.

Finally, southern sea ice is not very important to the climate. Unlike land ice, sea ice doesn’t affect sea levels because it’s already displacing water. And unlike the situation in the Arctic, where disappearing sea ice is making the Arctic Ocean less reflective and amplifying Arctic warming, a decline in southern sea ice would not warm the Antarctic climate. As long as climatologists have studied it, the Southern Ocean has been almost ice-free in summer, the time of year when it receives enough heat from the Sun to have a large effect. Southern sea ice is really just a distraction which diverts our attention from the more important issue of Arctic sea ice melt.

In conclusion, increasing southern sea ice does not contradict global warming. The Southern Ocean is warming, the increase of sea ice is due to a variety of factors, and sea ice is not that important to the Antarctic climate anyway.

2010-09-30 21:20:40sharpened wording proposals
nealjking

nealjking@gmail...
91.33.120.181

Relatively subtle word changes to make the language sound less defensive and improve emphasis:

"Finally, southern sea ice is not very important to the climate."

=> "Finally, southern sea ice is not particularly important to the climate."

 

"As long as climatologists have studied it, the Southern Ocean has been almost ice-free in summer, the time of year when it receives enough heat from the Sun to have a large effect." 

=> "For as long as climatologists have studied it, the Southern Ocean has been almost ice-free in summer, the time of year when it would receive enough heat from the Sun to have a large effect." 

 

"Southern sea ice is really just a distraction which diverts our attention from the more important issue of Arctic sea ice melt."

=> "The issue of southern sea ice is really just a distraction which diverts our attention from the more important issue of sea-ice melt in the Arctic."

 

"In conclusion, increasing southern sea ice does not contradict global warming. The Southern Ocean is warming, the increase of sea ice is due to a variety of factors, and sea ice is not that important to the Antarctic climate anyway."

=>  "In conclusion, the increase of southern sea ice does not contradict global warming. The Southern Ocean is indeed warming, the increase of sea ice is due to a variety of factors, and, in any case, sea ice does not play as significant a role for the Antarctic climate as it does for the Arctic."

2010-09-30 21:55:26
Ari Jokimäki

arijmaki@yahoo...
192.100.112.202

This suggests it probably was a good idea to get rid of the part about the ozone:

http://www.skepticalscience.com/thread.php?t=232&r=7

2010-10-01 03:17:02
Riccardo

riccardoreitano@tiscali...
192.84.150.209
Almost ready. I agree with Neil's  suggestions above. Thunbs up after that.
2010-10-01 13:09:55REVISION 3 - Neal's suggested rewording
James Wight

jameswight@southernphone.com...
58.105.164.221
Have made most of Neal's suggested changes except the last sentence now reads: "The Southern Ocean is in fact warming, the increase of sea ice is due to a variety of factors, and sea ice is not as important to the Antarctic climate as it is to the Arctic." Current revision can be found here.
2010-10-01 14:25:35
doug_bostrom

dbostrom@clearwire...
184.77.83.151
Looks good to me...
2010-10-01 16:35:39
nealjking

nealjking@gmail...
84.151.55.72
OK, good to go
2010-10-03 14:40:04
Rob Painting
Rob
paintingskeri@vodafone.co...
118.92.81.84
Another thumbs up
2010-10-05 15:01:14Bump
James Wight

jameswight@southernphone.com...
58.105.164.221
This is languishing.
2010-10-05 16:14:36
nealjking

nealjking@gmail...
91.33.108.75
go ahead
2010-10-07 16:32:14One thing
John Cook

john@skepticalscience...
124.186.160.198

I was about to publish this but there was one little thing that was niggling away at the back of my mind. On previous basic rebuttals where I've ignored my tingling spider-sense, they tend to be the one thing the critics leap upon that lessens the impact of the article. So I thought I should say something before the horse bolts, so to speak.

James, the one factor you cite to explain increasing sea ice is "One of these is that changing wind patterns around Antarctica have moved sea ice around, opening up gaps to be filled by newly-formed ice.". However, of the three suggested factors that cause increasing sea ice, this is actually the one in most doubt. The changing wind patterns are caused by the change in ozone. However, as Ari points out, a recent study casts doubt on the result that changing ozone should cause rising sea ice levels. I tried emailing John Turner (the original ozone guy) for comment on the new paper but no answer.

I would suggest just one change - replace that sentence with one of the other two causes of rising sea ice. There's the freshening of water which causes increased stratification, yadda yadda. But that's a mouthful to explain and even worse to understand. So probably the best option is the very latest research, Judith Curry's paper. I haven't read it but the general gist I got was that increased precipitation has provided an insulating snow cover that slows down sea ice melt. But don't take my word for it, I'd find out more about that paper and boil it down to a single sentence. Or hope that another author will provide the sentence for you :-)

2010-10-11 23:59:30Hope this is adequate
James Wight

jameswight@southernphone.com...
220.238.207.27

The paper is paywalled, but from reading the “press information”:

“The true reasons for the increasing ice are a complex set of factors that are not well understood. One of them is the warming of the Southern Ocean itself: a warmer ocean means more water being evaporated from the surface and falling as snow off the coast of Antarctica. The trend is expected to reverse during the 21st century as the Antarctic continues to warm.”

2010-10-12 12:25:26Curry quotes
John Cook

john@skepticalscience...
124.186.160.198

That press info states

"Additional precipitation lowers the salinity of the surface ocean and slows melting"

and the abstract says

"there has been an enhanced atmospheric hydrological cycle in the Southern Ocean that results in an increase of the Antarctic sea ice for the past three decades through the reduced upward ocean heat transport and increased snowfall"

What about change that paragraph to the following:

The true reasons for the increasing ice are a complex set of factors. One factor is an increase in precipitation over the Southern Ocean, which means more snowfall. However, this trend is expected to reverse in coming decades as the Antarctic continues to warm.

2010-10-13 12:46:40HOPEFULLY FINAL REVISION
James Wight

jameswight@southernphone.com...
220.238.207.27

Okay, have made that change. Here is the (hopefully final) revision:

First of all, it’s worth remembering that sea ice is not to be confused with land ice. This distinction might seem obvious, but the two are often confused in media reports. Sea ice is frozen seawater floating on the surface, whereas land ice is a layer of snow that has accumulated over time on a landmass. Antarctica is losing land ice at an accelerating rate.

However, it is clear that the extent of sea ice around the coast of the continent is growing. Why? The first explanation which comes to mind is that the Southern Ocean must be cooling. But on the contrary, the Southern Ocean has warmed by around 0.5°C in the three decades since satellites began measuring sea ice trends.

The true reasons for the increasing ice are a complex set of factors. One factor is an increase in precipitation over the Southern Ocean, which means more snowfall. However, this trend is expected to reverse in coming decades as the Antarctic continues to warm.

Finally, southern sea ice is not particularly important to the climate. Unlike land ice, sea ice doesn’t affect sea levels because it’s already displacing water. And unlike the situation in the Arctic, where disappearing sea ice is making the Arctic Ocean less reflective and amplifying Arctic warming, a decline in southern sea ice would not warm the Antarctic climate. For as long as climatologists have studied it, the Southern Ocean has been almost ice-free in summer, the time of year when it would receive enough heat from the Sun to have a large effect. The issue of southern sea ice is really just a distraction which diverts our attention from the more important issue of sea ice melt in the Arctic.

In conclusion, the increase of southern sea ice does not contradict global warming. The Southern Ocean is in fact warming, the increase of sea ice is due to a variety of factors, and sea ice is not as important to the Antarctic climate as it is to the Arctic.

2010-10-20 10:50:27Published
John Cook

john@skepticalscience...
124.186.160.198
I added a few lines to the blog post just to add some context. Hope that's ok. You can always edit the blog post if you like. Thanks James!
2010-10-28 03:51:25Rebuttal reposted at ClimateProgress
BaerbelW

baerbel-for-350@email...
93.231.133.130

Just a heads-up: Joe Romm reposted both the BASIC and the INTERMEDIATE rebuttal today:
http://climateprogress.org/2010/10/27/increasing-southern-sea-ice-antarctica/

Cheers
Baerbel